At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

[David M. Leugers]

Good points Andre. If all cartridges of S-8mm film had hand loading, I can't imagine the time factor and labor for millions of S-8mm cartridges that were sold at the height of consumer use of S-8mm film. Even today, comparing the cost of S-8mm to a roll of R-8mm film does not evidence the added expense of hand loading as they both are very nearly the same cost per foot. Meanwhile, 16mm magazine film was hand loaded and that was always given as the reason for the high premium one paid for 16mm magazine film versus 16mm roll film.

[aj]

Good to have you back Mitch. If it was the 5 foot point, then I'm 99% certain that the Film was not properly connected to the Spool. The Camera's Sprocket Arm could easily cram 5 feet of Film into the Take-up Chamber before it jams up. It is possible that the Spool could have been dislodged from its socket base in the Cartridge at the time of assembly, but this is not a likely explanation for your problem. If this jamming ever happens to you or anyone else again, turn the Clutch on the Cartridge clockwise with your fingers to see if it pulls the Film down from the Gate. If the Clutch just turns easily, then it's not connected to the Film.

This jitter has no clear cause. Would it be loose film then it would have a clear cause and cartridges would easily be swapped by Kodak. Kodak would then have a clear research target and certainly find the problem in no time.

Jitter may be caused by bad winding in the pick-up chamber but it is not because it is loose from the pick-up hub/core. Lack of power in the pull from the hub may the cause. Also seems consistent with a certain point in the film as the diameter grows with the exposed length. As the diameter grows the power becomes less. This can then be related to a clutch which slips too easily or even can be too rigid and pulls too strong.

[tlmester]

This jitter has no clear cause.

Mitch's problem was jamming -- not jitteriness.

... Lack of power in the pull from the hub may the cause. Also seems consistent with a certain point in the film as the diameter grows with the exposed length. As the diameter grows the power becomes less. ...

I don't know what you mean here. You need to use proper names when referring to the different parts of the Cartridge and Camera.

[aj]

The topic is:JITTERINESS

Missed a be here: hub may the cause . Would be hub may be the cause.

The rest seems plain english to me. I had few complaints in 2000+ posts. Although I may be not as afluent as other posters. Native speaker or not.

The point is that the strength of the pull from the winding hub varies with outer diameter and is influenced (possibly) by the friction in your brought on clutch. The pull can be too strong and too weak. Too strong could cause jitteriness as the film is pulled when it is supposed to be still, instead of pushed exclusively by the claw. Too weak could cause jams as it may fail to wind up quick enough or fail at all and the claw cannot push out the frames any longer.

Keeping torque output of this clutch within design limits of the camera and cartridge is thus of obvious importance.

To help out further using the Wittner Filmgate lube might lighten the forces of resistance. Also buying film from wittner should help as they are aware that film should be lubed when put into a cartridge.

[Mitch Perkins]

If it was the 5 foot point, then I'm 99% certain that the Film was not properly connected to the Spool.

Geez, that one percent's a bitch: while the take-up core was indeed very loose and free-turning, about 6 or 7 revolutions took up the slack, and the film then advanced nicely by turning the core. It is interesting that the first few feet were not properly taken up...

The Camera's Sprocket Arm could easily cram 5 feet of Film into the Take-up Chamber before it jams up.

If by "Sprocket Arm" you mean pulldown claw, I would agree.

It is possible that the Spool could have been dislodged from its socket base in the Cartridge at the time of assembly, but this is not a likely explanation for your problem.

Considering how tight things are in there, I don't think that's even possible.

If this jamming ever happens to you or anyone else again, turn the Clutch on the Cartridge clockwise with your fingers to see if it pulls the Film down from the Gate. If the Clutch just turns easily, then it's not connected to the Film.

If by "clutch" you mean take-up core, see above.

Mitch

[tlmester]

... The point is that the strength of the pull from the winding hub varies with outer diameter and is influenced (possibly) by the friction in your brought on clutch. The pull can be too strong and too weak. Too strong could cause jitteriness as the film is pulled when it is supposed to be still, instead of pushed exclusively by the claw. Too weak could cause jams as it may fail to wind up quick enough or fail at all and the claw cannot push out the frames any longer. ...

You are correct that, as the Take-up Spool gets larger, the strength of the Camera's Clutch to tug on the Film will decrease. This is due to leverage. However, as the Spool gets larger it is also necessary for the Clutch to slip more and more often. By the 40 foot point the Clutch will need to slip constantly. This increases the potential to suffer tugging on the Film. That's why proper Clutch slippage is so important. Remember that these S8 Cameras were made on assembly lines -- not precision made like Aaton or Arriflex Cameras. The Clutches were probably never calibrated to begin with.

Geez, that one percent's a bitch: while the take-up core was indeed very loose and free-turning, about 6 or 7 revolutions took up the slack, and the film then advanced nicely by turning the core. It is interesting that the first few feet were not properly taken up...

Mitch,
This is why I had originally asked you to provide us as much detail as possible. I cannot diagnose your problem if I don't know all the facts. Now you're providing this new detail that you were able to re-load the Carts, and then run them successfully through to 50 feet. I had assumed that you discarded the Carts once they jammed! Let me see if I have the facts correctly:
1. Your E64 Cartridges last year all jammed up around the 5 foot point.
2. You took them out, and turned the Clutch with your finger until the slack Film was wound up. I assume that you turned the Clutch 'clockwise'.
3. You then reloaded the Carts, and they ran successfully through to 50 feet.

Am I understanding things correctly? If so, I can only think of two possible causes for this fluke problem:
#1 The Clutches on the Camera and Cartridge didn't properly lock up. This is very unlikely.
#2 The employee who loaded the Film in the Cartridges mistakenly turned the Takeup Spool counter-clockwise. This would have meant that when you first ran the Carts they would have had to unwind the Takeup Spool before it could start winding up the Film. This delay in winding up the Film could easily lead to a jam. It would also explain why you had all that slack Film in the Takeup Chamber at the point that the Carts jammed. I suspect this was your problem. The batch of Carts you bought would have likely been assembled by the same employee.

Now there are a few people who insist that the Cartridge assembly / loading is 100% automated via machine. I don't want to argue this. If you can find a former Kodak Employee from the French S8 Plant who can confirm this, only then will I believe it. Having disassembled an old Cartridge, I know that it is impossible to completely assemble it without a person. There are random requirements which a machine cannot accommodate. With the assistance of a machine, a person can load the Film in the Cart, and have it heat molded together on a machine press in about 45 seconds. That would be pretty good timing.

Considering how tight things are in there, I don't think that's even possible.

I would agree. You didn't give me enough information to diagnose your problem.