At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

[tlmester]

OK, now, are we talking about humid Toronto or never-been humid California? I assume Germany is 100% humid. And what about when you OPEN the cart and keep it around for a while, then go swimming (like with a Nautica) and load the camera while on the dive boat in Fiji? How about loading a cart into your camera on a rainy day in Vancouver, Canada?

I can't speak Mike about humidity levels in California. However, condensation would be even worse than humidity if they took the master roll out of a Fridge, and didn't let it warm up fully in an air-tight package before cutting it. My main point is that you can't blame the Super8 format for manufacturing defects in Cartridge assembly! My two Super8 Cameras are essentially new. The tightness of the Clutches were manufacturing defects which I fortunately could correct. The Cartridge itself is not inherently a problem, but there can be defects in its assembly.

While I salute your enthusiasm in tackling this problem, your theory doesn't explain why ~all~ the 64T carts I shot last year for weddings jammed, and ~none~ of the 64T carts I've shot this year jammed (and also exhibit no jitter). Same camera both years, same type of brand new batteries...
...
Also, spinning the drive wheels of an automobile may create more heat/friction, but said wheels actually ~break free~ of the surface they are on and the motion is smooth, as in drifting, so that film advancing quicker through the camera (24fps) should be ~less~ affected by friction. My money is on wobble of the spooled film in the feed side at higher frame rates. In fact, I can hear it and feel it!
Mitch

Mitch,
Do you have a Micrometer which you could use to measure the "width" of your E64T Films to see if they are properly 8mm? If the Filmstrip is too wide it will absolutely jam! I would really be interested to know if there is any difference in Film width between your E64 Carts that jammed and those that didn't. Kodak would also benefit to know. I hope you can take these measurements.

Regarding Frame Speed, the Camera's Motor is of fixed torque -- you cannot increase torque as with an automobile engine. Additionally, there are 360 Degrees that the Film has to travel around inside that Cartridge! Super8 users should be very pleased if it works at 18f/s. If it fails at 24f/s you have no right to complain. The Silent Cartridge wasn't designed for that -- that was the Sound Cartridge.

[super8man]

For the record, I always wait 3 seconds from the time I take a roll out of the freezer until I rip into it and place it in a camera...

[MovieStuff]

My main point is that you can't blame the Super8 format for manufacturing defects in Cartridge assembly!

I don't think anyone here is saying that.

The Cartridge itself is not inherently a problem, but there can be defects in its assembly.

I think everyone here is saying that.

Roger

[Jim Carlile]

One of the sad things about the demise of sound film was the little-remarked fact that the sound cartridge was so much superior. It was quiet and didn't shake and shimmy the way the silent cartridges often do. The film transport was incredibly smooth--a much better product.

Does anyone know who is actually manufacturing the cartridges these days, and where? I suspect it's outsourced, like everything else. The new finishing plant in Colorado has been having its problems as well. Aren't empty cartridges on backorder? If so, this would indicate that known problems have developed.

[tlmester]

While I salute your enthusiasm in tackling this problem, your theory doesn't explain why ~all~ the 64T carts I shot last year for weddings jammed, and ~none~ of the 64T carts I've shot this year jammed (and also exhibit no jitter). Same camera both years, same type of brand new batteries...
...

Mitch, ...
Do you have a Micrometer which you could use to measure the "width" of your E64T Films to see if they are properly 8mm? If the Filmstrip is too wide it will absolutely jam! I would really be interested to know if there is any difference in Film width between your E64 Carts that jammed and those that didn't. Kodak would also benefit to know. I hope you can take these measurements.

Mitch,
Do you no longer have those E64 Films to measure the width? I asked a former Kodak Engineer about the Film cutting machines, and he doesn't think it is very likely that there would be width problems. Can you remember roughly at what point (in Feet) the Film jammed with those E64 Cartridges?

[S8 Booster]

the reference witdh is 7.90mm:



shoot.....

[tlmester]

Thanks for the Graph Chart. It seems like Mitch has disappeared. It is plausible that an unskilled Kodak employee didn't properly connect the Film to the Take-up Spool in his Carts that jammed. There's a little Ratchet Arm in the Cart to prevent the Spool from turning before it's put in the Camera. Without that Ratchet connected properly, the tension of the Film can cause it to dislodge from the Spool. The Camera's Sprocket Arm would have enough strength to cram a few feet of Film into the Take-up Chamber before it would jam up. If Mitch should reappear, he can provide us more specifics on his jamming problem.

P. S. Am I guessing correctly that in your picture you're hanging off of a Cable TV Wire -- about 12 feet off the ground? I'm guessing you had a mattress beneath you.

[David M. Leugers]

It is plausible that an unskilled Kodak employee didn't properly connect the Film to the Take-up Spool in his Carts that jammed.

Hmm. I don't believe an employee does such a thing. I seem to remember reading that the entire loading process is fully automated. And that was many years ago...
Then again, maybe the process is more manual now that the volume is not anywhere near what it used to be back in the late 1970's.

[S8 Booster]

P. S. Am I guessing correctly that in your picture you're hanging off of a Cable TV Wire -- about 12 feet off the ground? I'm guessing you had a mattress beneath you.

hmm... it is more like 30ft above and no safety gear avail.... electrical wire - commercial power..... ;)

btw... i got a micrometer if i can find it and som 64t ... see what i can do... i think Richard PT pinpointed one important factor of the new non - kodak and possibly 64t issues.... - take up lock/block.....

shoot...

[S8 Booster]

did a quick sample measure of a "exposed" 64T and it appears to be 7.96mm as far as i could get it.
slightly over the 7.90 reference.
no idea if there is any consistancy as i have not made more sample measurements over a processed roll.

shoot.... ;)

[tlmester]

If Mitch can get back to us, hopefully he can let us know at what point in feet his Carts jammed. This would be telling info to determine the cause.


David, did you see my Thread from a few weeks ago -- Inside the Super8 Cartridge -- which shows the whole inside. I'll try to talk to someone at Kodak to verify the assembly process, but I find it unlikely that it was ever possible to completely automate the loading of the Film into the Cartridge without a person involved. It has to be done in the dark which means that nobody can supervise a machine to see if it is working properly. You have to do everything by touch. Assembling it is a pretty intricate process mechanically because of the tension of Film -- trust me I've done it (in the light), and Film is too expensive to risk defective Carts. Take a look at my Thread, and you'll see how complicated it is. If it were automated, Kodak would have had no reason to close the French Assembly Plant since they wouldn't have had that many workers. The only reason they closed that Plant is to find cheaper workers than what they could get in France.

[aj]

David, did you see my Thread from a few weeks ago -- Inside the Super8 Cartridge -- which shows the whole inside. I'll try to talk to someone at Kodak to verify the assembly process, but I find it unlikely that it was ever possible to completely automate the loading of the Film into the Cartridge without a person involved. It has to be done in the dark which means that nobody can supervise a machine to see if it is working properly. You have to do everything by touch. Assembling it is a pretty intricate process mechanically because of the tension of Film -- trust me I've done it (in the light), and Film is too expensive to risk defective Carts. Take a look at my Thread, and you'll see how complicated it is. If it were automated, Kodak would have had no reason to close the French Assembly Plant since they wouldn't have had that many workers. The only reason they closed that Plant is to find cheaper workers than what they could get in France.

This is assumption.

What would be the diffence of a person feeling in the dark or a machine handling film in the dark. Machines are much better at that. It is about millions of cartridges per year!

Manufacturing in the 1960-ies was capable enough to set up productionlines for handling emulsions in the dark and stuffing these on cores and have these assembled into a super-8 cartridges. It was all designed to be handled by machines.

Contraire to popular belief. The processing facilities didn't handle the film by hand either. Just handling the in and out going envelopes was about it. Nobody cracked cartridges or reeled the film onto a large reel by hand.

[Maurizio Di Cintio]

Hi, there.
While I agree the clutch is very important, Timetester's solution of the jitter problem does not address some points outlined for instance, by Roger.
In fact my last batch of 4 x developed E 64T show evdent signs of jitter consistently. Fact is they were shot on three different machines: Nizo 6080, Canon 1014 XL-S and Leicina Special.
The problem IMHO lies in the fact that "newly" manufacterd film stock (it has been almost a decade now), lacks lubricant: probably the older memebers of this forum recall the fact that a cartridge just unwrapped by its foil showed signs of 'wet' on the bordes of the film aperture; strangely I have never happened to see this in recent years, so I'm inclined to track down the problem to poor lubrication.

[Mitch Perkins]

Shoot a test roll - your camera might be a champ.

Mitch

Or it might only work really great on that one test roll. ;)

Ya HAH! There is that...~:?)

As you noted previously, one year's worth of 64T was worthless and another year's worth was fine.

Just to be clear - not worthless at all, just some clear bits where I took out the cart and banged it. Was able to expose all rolls in their entirety. Note the resulting footage was not jittery, so that's kind of another kettle of fish, ain't it? ~:?)

That's why I have always maintained that the central problem is in the contemporary carts and that, while worn cameras only make the problem worse, they are not the common denominator to the issue. A good camera should always work if there is no inconsistency in the cart production.

Makes sense, but then there are those carts that work in one camera and not another, so we are encouraged to pull our hair out and grind our teeth. ~:?)

The degree of commonplace cart problems/failure that we just now sigh-and-take-for-granted because we love the format, warts-and-all, would have been impossible to pass off to the buying public as a reliable home movie tool back in the 60s and 70s.

And yet they did just that w/VHS...passed it off, I mean...eeesh! ~:?)

I'm sorry but I've shot thousands and thousands of feet of rock steady super 8 during the 60s, 70s and 80s and there is no one's argument that is going to change my mind about this so, for those that might try, don't.

Don't be sorry. I for one was certainly not trying to change your mind, since there's no inherent value to me in that. My motivation was to simply inform those that might not know it that the problem is not new, just worse...

While we also see the occasional jumpy footage when doing telecine from 70s super 8, my personal observation is that it is an either/or situation. The footage from the 70s is either rock steady or it jumps radically.

We've seen everything from radical jumping to minor blurring in 70's stuff. As you know we would hear this if it were (real-time) projector-related. In 16 or Reg8, the shooter got the loop wrong, one assumes, but what accounts for bad registration in the 70's Super 8? In such an automated system of manufacture, is it even possible for certain carts to be sub-standard?

But contemporary footage that doesn't show outright jumpiness -while totally usable- is very often still not that steady, compared to footage from the 70s. Thus, what many new super 8 shooters refer to as "looks fine" would be considered very unsteady and unacceptable by 70s standards because these new shooters really have no real frame of reference for what super 8 used to look like when everything worked as it should.

Yes, very often still not that steady, and yet sometimes very steady indeed - we have seen some rock-steady contemporary stuff...more hair pulling...

My position is that quality control on cart production and loading is just not what it used to be. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

Well, you *have* seen new stocks loaded in the same old cart design....it seems some of them wobble in the feed side...sometimes...~:?)

tlmester, I have no specs or specific memories other than the carts that jammed seemed to do so at about the 5' point...

Mitch

[tlmester]

Hi, there.
While I agree the clutch is very important, Timetester's solution of the jitter problem does not address some points outlined for instance, by Roger.
In fact my last batch of 4 x developed E 64T show evdent signs of jitter consistently. Fact is they were shot on three different machines: Nizo 6080, Canon 1014 XL-S and Leicina Special.
... so I'm inclined to track down the problem to poor lubrication.

Hi Maurizio,
You're the first person to jumble up my name into "timetester". :lol: :oops: You need to perform the two Clutch tests I recommended if you want to know the cause of your jitteriness. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that your Clutches are too tight. Do the two tests, and let us know the results.

tlmester, I have no specs or specific memories other than the carts that jammed seemed to do so at about the 5' point...

Good to have you back Mitch. If it was the 5 foot point, then I'm 99% certain that the Film was not properly connected to the Spool. The Camera's Sprocket Arm could easily cram 5 feet of Film into the Take-up Chamber before it jams up. It is possible that the Spool could have been dislodged from its socket base in the Cartridge at the time of assembly, but this is not a likely explanation for your problem. If this jamming ever happens to you or anyone else again, turn the Clutch on the Cartridge clockwise with your fingers to see if it pulls the Film down from the Gate. If the Clutch just turns easily, then it's not connected to the Film.