At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Forum covering all aspects of small gauge cinematography! This is the main discussion forum.

Moderator: Andreas Wideroe

tlmester
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:07 am
Real name: Mr. Terry Mester
Location: Welland, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by tlmester »

At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

After thoroughly scrutinizing how the Super8 Camera and Cartridge operate, I have determined the only possible cause of jitteriness. Contrary to popular belief, it is not related to the Cartridge. It is possible for stiff Film in the Cartridge to cause some problems -- in particular jamming, but not the general problem with jitteriness. Very simply, the cause of jitteriness is the Camera's Clutch. In a Movie Camera, the Take-up Reel / Spool regularly runs out of slack Film as it "takes up" the used Film coming down from the Film Gate. Every time the Take-up Spool in the Super8 Cartridge runs out of slack Film, the Clutch on the Camera turning the Cartridge Clutch has to slip until more Film is pushed down by the Film Gate's Sprocket Arm / Claw. However, if the Clutch slippage is too tight, the Film will be tugged by the Spool -- thus pulling the Film in the Film Gate and causing a jittery picture. The Take-up Spool is only supposed to wind up the Film as it enters the Take-up Chamber. It is the Sprocket Arm which is supposed to move the Film through the Cartridge -- one Frame at a time. In addition to jitteriness, a tight Clutch will also put strain on the Camera's Motor causing it to slow down -- thus screwing up the Film timing! A tight Clutch will also put a strain on the Camera's Gears which can cause damage.

It is very easy to test the slippage strength of the Camera Clutch. You test it with the Camera on and the Cartridge Chamber Door open. Just stop the Clutch with your finger as it turns, and note how much force is required to stop it from turning. It should slip with only a little bit more force than is required to turn the Cartridge's Clutch. In order to appreciate the small force required to turn the Cartridge Clutch, use your baby finger to turn one of the two
blades on the Clutch counter-clockwise a few turns and then clockwise. Only do this on a used or partly-used Cartridge -- not a new one! You will quickly feel when the slack Film runs out, and thus easily determine how little force is required to turn the Cartridge Clutch before the Camera Clutch needs to slip. It's a small amount of force.

The pictures below show the front, side and back views of two types of Camera Clutches from an Argus and Sankyo.

Argus Clutch
The Clutch assembly consists of a Clutch & Shaft, a Gear, a Spring, a Washer and a Locking Ring. The Ring slips into the groove on the Shaft which holds the Washer in place. The Spring applies pressure between the Gear and Washer which causes the Shaft to turn with the Gear. The point of slippage for the Clutch is at the Washer. The length of the Spring is what determines how tight the Clutch is before slipping. If this Spring applies too much pressure you thus suffer jitteriness. The Spring you see in the center view picture is less than one-half of its original length! The Clutch on this Camera was originally way way too tight! It now slips properly. With the cover off of the Camera, you can test the Clutch's slippage strength as mentioned above by holding the Clutch with your finger. With the Clutch stopped, take a close look at the Gear. The Gear must not slow down whatsoever! If the Gear's speed remains the same when you stop the Clutch, then you know the Clutch is slipping properly. If it slows down the Clutch is too tight.

If the Clutch is too tight, then you need to shorten the length of the Spring. The lower picture shows how to do this with a pair of Needle Nose Pliers. Just grab the Spring right near the bottom, and bend it down. Keep doing this until the Spring is reduced to the desired length. You will need to re-install and test the Clutch a few times with differing lengths of the Spring in order to determine when the Spring is the proper length, and the Clutch slips properly. You remove the Washer and Spring by pushing down on the Washer, and pulling the Locking Ring out with Pliers. You do the reverse for re-installing it.

Image Image

Image

Image Image

Use Pliers to bend the Spring down
Image


Sankyo Clutch
The Sankyo Clutch is a contained assembly consisting of the Clutch and a hollow Shaft which is connected to the White Disc at the back. It fits over a fixed Shaft on the Camera, and is held in place with a Locking Washer. The Black Gear in the center is turned by a Drive Gear on the Camera. There is a Cross "+" Spring which applies pressure between
the Gear and the Disc, and this is supposed to slip when the Clutch stops turning from insufficient slack Film. The Clutch on this Camera was also way way too tight! To loosen it I simply bent down the four arms of the Cross "+" Spring with a small Screw Driver. I made the mistake of adding lubricating oil inside the assembly -- do not repeat this mistake as I couldn't clean the oil out! This oil made the Clutch too loose. You can see in the back picture a short piece of Tooth Pick which I inserted inside to stiffen it up. This Clutch now works perfectly which I can determine both by the Gear speed remaining the same when I stop the Clutch and by the Indicator Light in the Camera's Viewfinder. Down below is a picture of the base on the Camera for the Clutch which shows a Cotter Pin Switch on the bottom edge. The four knobs on the White Disc close and open the Switch which turns the Cartridge Indicator Light on and off. So, when the Clutch and Disc stop turning when the Film runs out in the Cartridge, the Light stops flashing.

You must also verify that the Clutch is not tugging on the Film by looking at the end of the Film in a used Cartridge. The end of the Film should not advance after the last Sprocket Hole has been pushed down by the Sprocket Arm. There should be about 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Cartridge's Film Gate after the last Hole has advanced. If the Film at the end has advanced past the last Sprocket Hole, then this means that the Clutch is pulling the Film down, and it's too tight!

Image Image

Image

Image

Cotter Pin Switch for Indicator Light
Image


I can verify that as long as the Clutch in these Super8 Cameras is not too tight, these Cameras should never wear out. The only component on the Camera that could potentially wear out is the Brushes on the Electric Motor, but you'll never use it enough to wear out the Brushes. So little force is required to advance the Film through the Cartridge that there is nothing to cause these Cameras to wear out except a tight Clutch which will put a strain on all the Gears. This is why the plastic Gears in some Cameras wear out. Even with a cheap Camera, if the Clutch slips properly you shouldn't suffer jitteriness. It's very unfortunate that the Camera Manufacturers weren't more attentive to calibrating the Camera's Clutch properly. Jitteriness is probably a significant reason why many Super8 users quit using this format. You will also find the Camera's timing to be very consistent with a properly slipping Clutch. With this problem solved I hope that many former users will come back.

N. B. I have 11 Pictures to go along with this Thread. I don't know why they're not getting inserted. You can view my concurrent Thread on Cinematography.com to see the Pictures.
Mr. Terry Mester
http://www.zeuter.com/~tlmester
super8man
Senior member
Posts: 3980
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:51 pm
Real name: Michael Nyberg
Location: The Golden State
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by super8man »

Very very cool. I am sure the internet users of the future will thank you!!!

Awesome.

Me? I am too lazy to tear into them anymore, I simply pick a different camera...

Seriously though, very nicely done.

Cheers,
Mike
My website - check it out...
http://super8man.filmshooting.com/
richard p. t.
Senior member
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: victoria, Australia
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by richard p. t. »

well done! Indeed I concur. The tension of the camera's slip clutch is indeed critical. Nice articulation of the issue. And good disecting work on the clutch itself. I have never taken one apart myself.
The tension of the slip clutch needs to be just right. These are in fact IMHO the most critical part of the super 8 system. Too much tension and the film is pulled by the hub turning thingy, causing image unsteadiness ... not enough and the film will build up in the empty space inside the cartridge, then the roll will jam. The slip clutch also has to be able to cope with the changing diameter of the film take-up reel inside the cartridge. Of course as the film is taken up, a decreasing speed of take up rotation is required of the hub as its diameter changes. Were it not for that, there would be no need for the 'slip'. I see film transport as a function of both the camera with its slip clutch tension and the film/cartridge. I too, believe its quite wrong to just blame the cartridge - its both factors that have to be taken into account - the slip clutch AND cartridge combination.
cheers,
Richard
I run Nano Lab - Australia's super8 ektachrome processing service
- visit nanolab.com.au
richard@nanolab.com.au
David M. Leugers
Posts: 1632
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 12:42 am
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by David M. Leugers »

Maybe an important piece of the puzzle, but THE answer? The clutch issue doesn't answer the question why Kodachrome 2003 vintage suddenly was very jittery and jammed in cameras that never previously had a problem, then later
cartridges ran smoothly through the same cameras... nor does it answer why
E100D flows like butter through a camera that chokes on Velvia...

Any attention to keeping the cameras in proper working order is a step in the right direction. Great info and thanks for sharing.
aj
Senior member
Posts: 3557
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:15 pm
Real name: Andre
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by aj »

This is likely the most useful first post by any member.

Seems like a reasonable analysis. Cameras get older and older and aging is more likely a factor then variations in fresh products from a manufacterer who has been been leading in its industry for decades.

Adjustment can drift and rubber components get stiffer.
Kind regards,

André
tlmester
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:07 am
Real name: Mr. Terry Mester
Location: Welland, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by tlmester »

richard p. t. wrote:...The slip clutch also has to be able to cope with the changing diameter of the film take-up reel inside the cartridge. Of course as the film is taken up, a decreasing speed of take up rotation is required of the hub as its diameter changes. Were it not for that, there would be no need for the 'slip'. I see film transport as a function of both the camera with its slip clutch tension and the film/cartridge. I too, believe its quite wrong to just blame the cartridge - its both factors that have to be taken into account - the slip clutch AND cartridge combination.
cheers,
Richard
Hi Richard,
The Camera's Clutch actually doesn't slow down as the Cartridge fills up. It turns at a constant speed designed for an "empty" Cartridge (about one revolution per second), and as the Cart Take-up Spool fills up the Clutch needs to slip more and more. Jitteriness should only become noticeable after using about 10 to 15 feet of Film. By the time you get to 40 feet there will be a constant need for slippage.
David M. Leugers wrote:Maybe an important piece of the puzzle, but THE answer? The clutch issue doesn't answer the question why Kodachrome 2003 vintage suddenly was very jittery and jammed in cameras that never previously had a problem, then later cartridges ran smoothly through the same cameras... nor does it answer why E100D flows like butter through a camera that chokes on Velvia...
Hi David,
I'm pretty sure that Velvia is a thick Film -- at least thicker than most films. Velvia is really a still Photographic Film and not originally designed as a Movie Film. This makes it stiff for travelling through the four 90 Degree Corners in a Super8 Cartridge. One small improvement that could be made to the Super8 Cart is to add a second Roller Pin to the top corner above the Film Gate. This would probably solve the problems with Velvia. My Pictures didn't successfully work with this Website, but I'll post some Pictures of the inside of a Cart on Cinematography.com for users to see how a Cart works.
Mr. Terry Mester
http://www.zeuter.com/~tlmester
richard p. t.
Senior member
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: victoria, Australia
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by richard p. t. »

tlmester wrote:
Hi Richard,
The Camera's Clutch actually doesn't slow down as the Cartridge fills up. It turns at a constant speed designed for an "empty" Cartridge (about one revolution per second), and as the Cart Take-up Spool fills up the Clutch needs to slip more and more. Jitteriness should only become noticeable after using about 10 to 15 feet of Film. By the time you get to 40 feet there will be a constant need for slippage.
Quite right. that is indeed what I meant. And were it not for that varying diameter, there would be no need for the 'slip' of the slip clutch. Hidyho.
I run Nano Lab - Australia's super8 ektachrome processing service
- visit nanolab.com.au
richard@nanolab.com.au
User avatar
MovieStuff
Posts: 6135
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:07 am
Real name: Roger Evans
Location: Kerrville, Texas
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by MovieStuff »

Good job on the clutch description. I agree that the slip clutch can play a large part in whether the image is stable but, having repaired many cameras myself so that I know the slip clutch is working correctly, I have seen subsequent rolls that still have jitter or, at the very least, a very unsteady image (compared to footage shot decades ago). Also, I have seen footage shot on cameras that have been repaired by Bjorn that have the same problem and he's no slouch, when it comes to camera repair. And, as others have pointed out, the slip clutch would not really explain why some rolls work okay but other rolls of the very same emulsion do not. If the slip clutch were the culprit on the rolls that showed problems, then all rolls of that same emulsion would have the same problem -unless- there were manufacturing inconsistencies from one roll to the next which has always been my position and still is.

Roger
David M. Leugers
Posts: 1632
Joined: Thu May 02, 2002 12:42 am
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by David M. Leugers »

[quote]Hi David,
I'm pretty sure that Velvia is a thick Film -- at least thicker than most films. Velvia is really a still Photographic Film and not originally designed as a Movie Film. This makes it stiff for travelling through the four 90 Degree Corners in a Super8 Cartridge. One small improvement that could be made to the Super8 Cart is to add a second Roller Pin to the top corner above the Film Gate. This would probably solve the problems with Velvia. My Pictures didn't successfully work with this Website, but I'll post some Pictures of the inside of a Cart on Cinematography.com for users to see how a Cart works.[quote]

Hi Terry. Yes I agree about Velvia - it does not really work out as a motion picture stock in any format. If improvements can be made in the S-8mm cartridges to provide more reliable transport we are all for it. Please remember that S-8mm films were shot for decades with thoroughly reliable results...
User avatar
etimh
Senior member
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:15 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by etimh »

aj wrote:This is likely the most useful first post by any member.
Completely agree. This is an awesome post. I don't work on cameras but this is really interesting to read about.

Thanks tlmester for posting, and others for the great discussion!

Tim
tlmester
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:07 am
Real name: Mr. Terry Mester
Location: Welland, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by tlmester »

MovieStuff wrote:...And, as others have pointed out, the slip clutch would not really explain why some rolls work okay but other rolls of the very same emulsion do not. If the slip clutch were the culprit on the rolls that showed problems, then all rolls of that same emulsion would have the same problem -unless- there were manufacturing inconsistencies from one roll to the next which has always been my position and still is.

Roger
Hi Roger,
Which Films have given you problems? I imagine Velvia. Have you had many problems with Kodak-made Cartridges? Have you had problems with K40? Also, have you had problems in cold weather as opposed to warm weather? Remember that cold Film will be stiffer than at room temperature. If you've had problems with a Pro8mm Cartridge, then I would definitely blame Pro8mm. I've heard many horror stories about them.

As I noted a fundamental test for the Clutch strength is to check the end of the Film. Run a used Cartridge in the Camera for about a minute. There should be 5 Sprocket Holes of Film left in the Cartridge Film Gate. If the last Sprocket Hole has advanced past the Sprocket Arm, then the Clutch is too tight and is pulling the Film. A tight Clutch also makes a Film jam more likely because it puts a strain on the Gears and Motor causing them to slow down, and this weakens the Motor's strength for pulling and pushing down the Sprocket Arm to advance the Film. This could result in an incomplete advance of an individual Film Frame. Weak batteries will also cause this problem. I only use full strength Duracell.
Mr. Terry Mester
http://www.zeuter.com/~tlmester
super8man
Senior member
Posts: 3980
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:51 pm
Real name: Michael Nyberg
Location: The Golden State
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by super8man »

etimh wrote:
aj wrote:This is likely the most useful first post by any member.
Completely agree. This is an awesome post. I don't work on cameras but this is really interesting to read about.

Thanks tlmester for posting, and others for the great discussion!

Tim
Let the love fest begin. Ack. More revisionist history (not the post info, but the selective recall of useful information). Andreas should make a poster of the month picture on this blog.
My website - check it out...
http://super8man.filmshooting.com/
pippin
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 12:40 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by pippin »

This issue of jitteriness is the biggest affecting the whole future of Super 8mm. I am not a technical person so I cannot add anything to the technical side. But the affect on marketing and sales cannot be underestimated. If the film cannot run properly through the camera, then people will not buy it. I recently had a cartridge of E64 jam when mid way through a lap dissolve. This has never happened to me before in 30 years of using K40 or Plus X. It is not possible to retrieve the situation when the film is bunched into the take up side of the spool. This means I will not buy any more E64. The issue of the stability of the super 8 cart has been rumbling on for decades. The guage war is not over. Standard 8 may yet outrun its rival.
tlmester
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:07 am
Real name: Mr. Terry Mester
Location: Welland, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by tlmester »

pippin wrote:...I recently had a cartridge of E64 jam when mid way through a lap dissolve. This has never happened to me before in 30 years of using K40 or Plus X. It is not possible to retrieve the situation when the film is bunched into the take up side of the spool. This means I will not buy any more E64. ...
Pippin,
I would urge you not to give up on E64. The jam was not likely related in any way to the Cartridge. I have suffered a jam with a K40 Cart at about the 48 foot point. Test the Clutch on your Camera using the two methods I recommended above. As I noted above, a tight Clutch will put a strain on the Gears and the Motor which weakens their strength, and this makes you more likely to suffer a jam -- especially after the 30 foot point. Also test your Batteries! Weak Batteries will also make a jam more possible.
Mr. Terry Mester
http://www.zeuter.com/~tlmester
User avatar
etimh
Senior member
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:15 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: At last, A SOLUTION TO JITTERINESS

Post by etimh »

super8man wrote:
etimh wrote:
aj wrote:This is likely the most useful first post by any member.
Completely agree. This is an awesome post. I don't work on cameras but this is really interesting to read about.

Thanks tlmester for posting, and others for the great discussion!

Tim
Let the love fest begin. Ack. More revisionist history (not the post info, but the selective recall of useful information). Andreas should make a poster of the month picture on this blog.
What's the problem, Mike? I don't get why you're so grumpy. Seems like an interesting discussion to me.

Tim
Post Reply