diy telecine 16mm colour neg???

[simo8]

Hi, i have recently been given a few 400 foot rolls of kodak 16mm colour negative film. It is all really old stock, (potentially mid 80s) but has been fridge stored. With the age of this film the quality is going to be dubious at best, so I don't want to spend a fortune on process and transfer. I was planning on getting the film processed professionally but attempting the transfer to computer for editing myself. The obvious problem that I can't quite seem to get an answer to despite searching is how to invert the image to a positive and deal with the colour of the film base? Is there any software that can do this on the fly? I'm using a mac by the way.

So, am I simply trying to flog a dead horse here, or is there someone out there who has tried something similar and is willing to share their wisdom and experience with me? I've been shooting super8 for some time now and was planning on using this free film to get to grips with shooting 16mm before shelling out for some decent film.

One more quick novice question! In a darkroom I will have to put the film from the 400 foot roll on to 100 foot spools for my camera. I have a couple of empty 100 foot daylight load spools. My question is, will I get these spools back from the lab with my processed film on, or does film generally come back on plastic spools for projection / transfer? If I get my spools back I can use them again, if not does anybody know where I can get some more empty daylight spools from?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can help.

Cheers

Simon

_____________________________________
_____________________________________

[Janne]

One more quick novice question! In a darkroom I will have to put the film from the 400 foot roll on to 100 foot spools for my camera. I have a couple of empty 100 foot daylight load spools. My question is, will I get these spools back from the lab with my processed film on, or does film generally come back on plastic spools for projection / transfer?

The film will come back on a plastic core. You have to ask them to return the empty daylight spools.

[fogo]

Hi Simo,

the problem with ur question is that you don't really tell us if you have any equipment that its at least feasible to do this job with - ie what's ur potential telecine set up? Potentially, using the correct camera and software, you might be able to get some results. I for one would encourage you to try and construct a set up that's capable of this...if thats how you want to spend ur free time, but you did say that you wanted to learn how to shoot 16. A more cost effective method might be to just buy some 100' rolls of reversal to do this. If you want to save a little cash, buying some home processing equipment and learning how to use this will cost a fraction of the telecine set up you suggest and ultimately be both more rewarding and give you more insight into 16mm film making.

If you remain committed to the transfer idea, the subject has been discussed here in sporadic threads, which cumulatively give you answers to the technical possibilities, so it may be worth researching the site thoroughly for everything you can find. I'm currently working on a long term project for a 16mm telecine set up, but was not contemplating negative.

So, any more info?

Hope this helps, ade

[simo8]

Janne thanks.

Ade, yes I guess I should have given you a little more information. I suppose I was fishing to see if diy transfer of neg film was even plausible and if anybody had had any success. Before my initial post I did have a good search through the forum and found related topics, but nothing that really hit the nail on the head. The equipment that I have at the moment incidentally is simply an ELF RM-1 projector and a sony mini DV camera plus a mac computer. I'm aware that this isn't ideal equipment for the job, but I am really keen to hear from somebody who has managed to reasonably successfully transfer neg, and hear how they achieved it and how satisfied they were with their results. Perhaps that would have been a better angle to use for my post. Any info I could gleam will allow me to either adapt what I have, or can lay my hands on, or ditch the idea all together. From reading through previous posts I have a pretty good understanding of the steps involved and related problems such as dealing with the cast from the film base....just how, if at all, have people managed???

Ade, your suggestion to buy some rolls of reversal and just shoot is very valid indeed, and I plan too. It's just having all this neg film in the fridge begging to be shot has got my mind working. I plan on making some sort of work-printer set up for my 8mm and 16mm reversal, it would just be nice if I could get it to work reasonably well With negative as well.

Good luck with your 16mm set up

Cheers Simon.

[BK]

Mid 80's rolls of negative film? Process a 100ft roll first and see how it goes. You might need to increase exposure by 1 stop or so for the loss in film speed and there would be a reduction in contrast as well with cosmic radiation fogging. But you can compensate for this with your NLE.

Interesting old post on DIY super 8 neg transfer:

http://filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/v ... dfb440adbe

What model is that Sony DV cam of yours? Does it have the digital negative effect built in for inverting to positive on the fly?

Let us know how you get on.

Good luck,

Bill

[audadvnc]

DYI transfer of color negative film is theoretically possible, but practically unlikely unless you intend to expend serious time and resources to get it to work. For starters, you shouldn't run negative film through a film projector, because OCN is much softer and prone to scratches than reversal or print film stocks. It may be cheaper and certainly less trouble to send it off to a telecine house for transfer - but why waste the effort on 20+ year old film, unless you have access to free transfer time.

[wado1942]

I keep telling people every time this question gets asked that you will NEVER get a usable image out of negative stock by transferring it yourself. There's just too much processing required to get a clean image. I think Mattias mentioned that once you invert the image, undo the incorrect gamma applied by your camera and add the correct gamma, you'r midtones will be about 4-bit. Then you have to remove the red mask that effects predominantly the dark portions which will distort the image even more. So that leaves you with 2 options, shoot your old film, have a work print made of it and transfer that at home or buy some reversal film and transfer that at home. I guess there's a 3rd option which is shoot the old film and have somebody with a proper flying spot scanner do the transfer.

[christoph]

I keep telling people every time this question gets asked that you will NEVER get a usable image out of negative stock by transferring it yourself. [...] I think Mattias mentioned that once you invert the image, undo the incorrect gamma applied by your camera and add the correct gamma, you'r midtones will be about 4-bit. Then you have to remove the red mask that effects predominantly the dark portions which will distort the image even more.

can we please stop this myth?
a natural looking invert function has to be done in gamma corrected space (which is what any normal video camera output will give you).
the biggest problem is the low contrast image with the embedded orange mask in combination of most people using a low quality consumer camera.
i've done quite a few "usable" negative transfers and so have justin and kent and lots of others. it takes quite a bit of color correction skills though, and you'll get dust and scratches, no matter how careful you are.
++ c.

[wado1942]

Um, the camera will add gamma correction of 2.2 (in the US). Once you invert the image, the gamma will be .46 or so. That means you have to add a gamma of 4.4 to correct that in post. It's no myth. I've tried transferring negatives also and the image is crap every time. You'll get far better results shooting reversal or transferring a print.

[christoph]

i don't get it, why don't you just listen for a moment and do some research?
++ c.

[Justin Lovell]

the camera will add gamma correction of 2.2 (in the US)

depends on the camera that you use and the control that you have over its processing. Also an additional color corrector can give you control over your mids/shadows/highlight to make adjustments for shifts.

Though, if you have that much control, you've probably invested in the proper gear and I guess its not really a DIY transfer anymore. So I guess you're right.

You'll get far better results shooting reversal or transferring a print

I've had much better results scanning off the neg then scanning off the 16mm print. More latitude gives you more freedom during the transfer- shadows/highlights don't clip.

[wado1942]

i don't get it, why don't you just listen for a moment and do some research?

I do listen and I HAVE done the research, not to mention the fact that I've done it myself. I'm not saying you can't restore the contrast to being somewhat correct, I'm saying the color depth is lost in the mid-tones. The image quality drops like a rock when you do agressive color/contrast correction like that. I'm not using cheap equipment either. A $2,400 camera USD with an $800 piece of software that processed everything in a 12-bit 4:4:4 environment with pretty complete primary and secondary color correction is what I use. I do the transfers using an aerial transfer system I built myself using high grade optical glass. I've seen shots of negative film other people have transferred at home and that looks like crap too. But if you do the inversion FIRST, THEN add the gamma, the image is suddenly so much cleaner than gamma-in-camera, inversion, gamma....now WHY is that? Because you're not stretching the bottom 3 bits up to the mid levels.

[christoph]

I do listen and I HAVE done the research

no, you don't and you haven't...




++ c.

[wado1942]

None of those examples look right which pretty much proves my point. But I do have a question. How did you get a negative image with no gamma correction? ALL cameras have gamma correction, some you can disable them but they all have it to a degree. Even flatbed scanners apply gamma correction.

[christoph]

None of those examples look right which pretty much proves my point.

jesus, these are without any sort of colour correction at all. look at the histogram - now which one you think will be easier to correct?

But I do have a question. How did you get a negative image with no gamma correction? ALL cameras have gamma correction, some you can disable them but they all have it to a degree.

why do you even ask a question if you answer it yourself afterwards (incorrectly)?
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBu ... 6&id=73501

but actually i don't want argue with you again. all i wanted it to point out to those interested in negative transfer is that the built-in gamma correction is not the problem. i never said it was easy either.

peace and out
++ c.