Eumig 610D Focus Problem & DIY TELECINE - NEWBIE!!!

[Rich2000]

Hi everybody,

I've been reading some of the forum topics on here for weeks now and I took the plunge and bought an Eumig 610D off Ebay for the purpose of turning it into a Telecine machine, like the Workprinter etc etc.

I plan to follow the fabulous instructions set out by Onsuper8, with a few modifications of my own;I may try an RGB & White LED setup and I'm going to try and incorporate an optical sensor for the software trigger

In addition I don't know if I want to sacrifice the projectors normal operation by removing the shutter blades - It seems such a wonderfully simple and quality projector and would be useful to show the old movies as they should be.

I plan to Telecine all my Dad's 8mm and Super8 home movies of Steam engines and early diesels in the west country. Some pretty rare stuff by all accounts. There is also my parents wedding to transfer. After I have finished those I have an old family friend's films of onboard the aircraft Ark Royal in the early 70's - Some fabulous shots of F-4 phantoms and Bucanneers taking off and landing. I'll be busy and I definitely want to get the transfer 100% right! Plenty of other friends have shown interest too and I certainly love looking at days gone by.

OK onto my question;

I have a problem with my new arrival off ebay (I don't blame the seller as they sold it as is and I got it for a fair price), namely the film focuses on the left hand side only and with an adjustment of the focus knob the centre and right come clearer as the left side blurs. This continues with the turning of the knob until only the right is sharp. I can't get the whole frame sharp.

Is this an issue with the gate springs? Any solutions?

Any help would be greatly appreciated and I'd love to share my findings and results with the forum.

Thanks

Rich

[fogo]

Hi Rich and good luck with the project, some of the footage you've got sounds fantastic!

You havent really described the 'other half' of your project in terms of camera and specifically lens set up......are you going down the aerial image condenser route or are you planning to record directly off the film gate? Just thinking that the problem could well be connected with the lens you ve got (have you tried spinning it?) which may not be relevant to the finished product anyway?

ade

[richard p. t.]

If you get a working telecine out of your project, it will have been well worth sacrificing the blades of this projector. DO IT. Buy some tin snips and snip them off. I believe it is better to cut them off rather than try and dismantle the projector because if you pull the projector apart, you may not get it back together quite like it was. Get another perhaps cheaper projector for just watching movies on and dedicate your 610d to telecine. I certainly believe it is essential to removes the blades in any case (lest you are not talking frame by frame capture).
Also, I would personlly drop the condensor lens areal image rout and get a video camera with an interchangeable lens so you can capture directly off the gate.
As to your focus issue, the lens could be crooked I guess, or the pressure plate could be stuck on one of its springs (more likely) Try pushing the plate in against its springs a few times then try again.
richard

[Rich2000]

Thanks richard p.t. and fogo.

I was originally intending to go the aerial image route, but I'll do some more research and decide later. I've got a Canon HV10 HDV camera and intended to record in HD, but apparently that's another forum topic in it's own right.

I really like this Eumig 610D projector. I can use my Dad's 802D for showing the films, but I like the easy threading of film and I've had no problems operating it. Perhaps I will sacrifice the baldes and I'll then have to buy another 610D

The pressure plate springs are not stuck and I even put the tinyest amount of light oil on them to see it it made them any freer. Perhaps only the slightest bit, but they are fairly free.

Just to add to my original post and after watching a good few reels this after noon. Standard 8mm is fine!!! It doesn't suffer from what I mentioned earlier and is sharp from edge to edge.

Also, when watching Super 8mm I can sometimes see the sprocket holes. Is this right?

Hope that adds to the confusion and thanks for the help guy!

EDITTED:

The guy I bought if from said in his e-mail reply that he changed the bulb for one that fitted because the other one was broke. Is seems to work, but would the wrong bulb cause focus issues? I might try the other one from the Eumig 802D. Is it the correct one for the 610D?

Thanks

[RCBasher]

Hi Rich, you might want to take a look here: Eumig 610 D as I bought a 610 D off ebay myself last Friday. These machines have an interesting construction to say the least! Don't think you will be able to snip off the blades in situ with tinsnips. This is a cast and machined assembly. The blades are quite thick and part of the pulley and claw pulldown assembly which could be easily damaged. I had to disassemble the unit and turn off the blades in the lathe...but a hacksaw and a bit of filing would do the job also, but don't forget it spins at over 1000rpm, so good balance is essential

As you will see from my webpage linked to above, fitting an optical switch is also turning out to be quite hard.

I'm updated this page quite reguarly as I progress, which is why I haven't openly published it yet...but I think you should read it first so you know what you are letting yourself in for :!:

Good luck and don't forget to share your efforts
Frank

[ronnoco]

I'm another one that has converted this particular projector for telecine..at the moment my setup is exactly as the instructions on super8.org site...microswitch on rear tensioner and use of condenser lens....with a bit of messing about the results I have achieved have been pretty acceptable.
I don't see the need to remove the shutter blades at all...I understand from reading posts on this forum that problems with shutter blades seem to be associated with ntsc but not with pal...I have not had any problems at all with the shutter blades..
As I have posted before the weakest component is the micro switch on the tensioner...you can get it right but it takes time...and I have experienced a lot of dropped frames when capturing at 3fps...but surprisingly this improves at 6 fps.
I find real time capturing at 18fps off the lens also very acceptable.
Another member posted an alternative solution for the micro switch...mounted inside the projector near the gate...I have a photo of the mounting point on another computer ...I will post it later to give you another possible route for the triggering process. I sourced a 50mm opal diffuser easily which fits the old bulb holder perfectly and used a small cable tie to secure the diffuser to the holder. Swapped out the 100w halogen for a 20w version....the system does work...but could definitley be improved.....good luck with it...if I can help in anyway just holler.

Mike

[RCBasher]

...and I have experienced a lot of dropped frames when capturing at 3fps...but surprisingly this improves at 6 fps.

Do you mean dropped frames, or frames with pulldown blur?
If it is dropped frames, then it must be a problem with the film tension/microswitch solution. I haven't seen your picture of the alternative microswitch position, but the only other possible point is on the pulldown claw frame, marked as "B" in the picture on my webpage.

I don't see the need to remove the shutter blades at all...I understand from reading posts on this forum that problems with shutter blades seem to be associated with ntsc but not with pal...I have not had any problems at all with the shutter blades

PAL or NTSC will have some sort of problem. The blade rotates at 18fps, which is not an exact multiple for PAL or NTSC. Regardless of the selected projector speed on the 610D, the blade on/off cycle is approximately 10ms/8ms respectively. For PAL, you will need to capture a frame after pulldown and with an exposure of no more than 10ms. The next exposure (for a normal interlaced video camera) will have to happen 25ms later - which will be bang in the middle of the next+1 blade passing the frame!
Can you post some successive frame captures please? I suspect there will be some brightness flicker...

Frank

[fogo]

Hi Frank and great to see you onboard with the 610D...

read ur work so far and its looking very very good....I havent as yet removed my shutter blades so I look forward to seeing ur results,

keep at it,

ade

[RCBasher]

Hi Frank and great to see you onboard with the 610D...

read ur work so far and its looking very very good....I havent as yet removed my shutter blades so I look forward to seeing ur results,

keep at it,

ade

Hi Ade, I don't expect my final results to be much different than from my Cinerex projector. I'm dumping the Cinerex because it is worn out and also because I've just discovered it has been scratching film - just outside of the "normal" viewing area, but only recently opened up the gate and saw the damage it had done. This was not acceptable!!!

Took a quick look at the cam section this evening and it seems to be quite easy to use it for an optical blade for the sensor switch. Will post again when working...

Frank

[Rich2000]

Hi RCBasher. Had a look at your site. Very interesting stuff and lots of ideas to digest.

I have access to a lathe and a competant person to operate it, so if it is easy enough to get the shutter disc out, I will. I had thought about the balancing issue too.

Ronnoco; I had ran a film while observing the working of the projector and I had thought the motion of the rear tensioner looked better at 6FPS rather than 3FPS. When you say dropped frames, how many are you talking.

Any ideas on my focussing issue though from my first posts? If I can't get that sorted then I can't really move on to getting decent Telecine results.

Cheers Guys, this is a really helpful, rapid moving forum and will certainly try and join in where I can.

Rich

[RCBasher]

I have access to a lathe and a competant person to operate it, so if it is easy enough to get the shutter disc out, I will. I had thought about the balancing issue too.

It is not as hard to remove as it it looks like it would be. The framing control moves the whole mechanism up and down, so if you look in the back while operating the framing lever, you will see what forms the assembly to remove.

Basically:

Remove the speed selector mechanism. I suggest you unscrew the two pillars at the top so that you don't disturb the adjustment settings - they have two flats on to allow a spanner to grip. First move the selector to one end and make a note of the teeth engagement at the bottom end with the cam mechanism.

Remove the motor belt and the chain.

Remove the chain tensioner (just loosen the screw, the tensioner bracket has a slot rather than a hole).

Remove the bits and support frame at the back of the transport control and the forward/reverse cog assembly....the retaining clips on the later are a bu**er to get off!

It should then look roughly like this:

(I have more bits removed because I've eliminated the need for the cam driven speed control)
Remove the 3 screws marked S in the picture and it should then be easily removed. The rest should be obvious, but note the exact postion of the blade assembly on the shaft as its position is quite critical.
BTW, also note before removing the assembly the two spring plate clips between the assembly and the chassis about mid height and at the front.

Good luck...and I take no responsibility for you trashing your projector! :lol:

Frank


[EDIT] There is more general info on my Cine2Digits project on my website. Use the WWW button at the bottom of this post.

[RCBasher]

Any ideas on my focussing issue though from my first posts? If I can't get that sorted then I can't really move on to getting decent Telecine results.

Two things:

I noticed on my 610D that the lens holding door doesn't sit tight to the body when closed...so the lens wouldn't be square to the film. Try pressing the door in and see how it looks.

Secondly, the bulb holder position is adjustable. The bottom two bracket screws have a pivot point behind them. The top screw is spring loaded for in/out adjustment around the pivot. The holes are also vertically slotted to allow for up/down adjustment.

Hope this helps.

Frank

[onsuper8]

A few criticisms of my own efforts....

Clearly (avoiding the pun) the optical path is dependent on a miriad of factors and requires a whole load of "fettling" as we say in these parts. I think moving to eliminating the aerial/field lens and using a CCD camera and lens to "film" the gate has to be the way to go.

The film tensioner solution was always meant to be a non intrusive solution. I would prefer an optical system to detect sprocket holes but haven't tried this as yet. My concern would be totally exposed reversal film - would an IR optical circuit be able to detect a sprocket hole from film?

The Eumig is built like a tank which is why I picked it - but it's not friendly and I dont like the clunky mechanical control system. I run mine at either 3fps or 6fps which is fine for 90% of the time. It hates splices which disturbs the tensioner and results in "missed frames" (i.e. not grabbed).

Maybe with the early onset of Winter here in the UK I might go back to the bench an re-engineer again...

[RCBasher]

A few criticisms of my own efforts....

Hi Giles...don't think you need to be critical of your soultion. It is ingenious and certainly inspired me to telecine DIY (I found your site first) and I'm sure very many others. For this I personally thank you.

I would prefer an optical system to detect sprocket holes but haven't tried this as yet. My concern would be totally exposed reversal film - would an IR optical circuit be able to detect a sprocket hole from film?

I think very unlikely. I had enough trouble with stray light in my original solution with my full black shutter.

If you intend to keep the Eumig's original speed control, then I think the only way of getting a reliable optical pick up is to attach some sort of "flag" to the claw arm around where the end of the compression/tension spring is to detect in/out movement. The other idea I've had is to maybe use a hall effect proximity detector in the same area.

Maybe with the early onset of Winter here in the UK I might go back to the bench an re-engineer again...

Well keep us posted and if I can be of help, please ask.

Best,
Frank

[gianni1]

I would first try the projector at 3 or 6 or 9 fps with the microswitch installed prior to taking out the shutter blades. I think with PAL it's less of a problem than with the NTSC shutter problem... The numbers may argue against me, but the results may be OK for forgiving home users. If you want to go pro or hack hardware then fix the shutter blades...

Instead of a Eumig 610D, I used a GAF 2688Z projector like the kind that Moviestuff transforms professionally. (Some Boots projector clones look like the GAF's) That was because I didn't understand the microswitch machine interface with the film strip tension. Instead, I bolted a metal strip onto the projector, then the microswitch onto that, which got bumped by the frame advance mechanism. I did not remove the shutter. I did removed the entire lamp house and illuminate the gate it through a diffuser from outside behind the projector with a small table lamp.

I've adapted about six or seven old projectors for telecine, to test for myself the pros and cons of various techniques. It's also just a hobby, so I don't invest much keeping everything low cost and low tech. Also I have limited space to work / play and small kids occasionally mess with or destroy my creations! :? One of my goals is to eventually convert the plastic mupi projectors, and the hand cranked toy projectors and viewers into film scanners.

So far it seems to me that the lamp always has to go and needs to be replaced with a low energy alternative with a diffuser. Opal seems best but I haven't found and for sale locally. With my dumpster diving and boot sale collecting, my last projector lamp w/ opal came from a converted IKEA 10W quartz halogen spot lamp that cost me £1.00. I wouldn't pay more than ten or twenty for a good condition projector, unless I was going to make it into a pro working machine.

Camcorder wise, whatever works for you. I've even used my K750i phone... I've found that PAL camcorders with a slow shutter effect, under 1/25th is good for realtime capture, with Neg Art mode for reversal capture of Black and White negative films.

I'm also pressed for time waiting for films to capture at 6fps.. so at this time I prefer real time telecine and accept a few blurred or missed frames.

Gianni 8)