Pro8mm may have ruined my film project

[DeepBlueEditor]

This is a clone of the information I posted at Cinematography.com in the Super8 forum and my Blog on MySpace. I thought since some folks are not in both places, this might save someone else some issues or expense...

I won't post the whole bloody mess here but if you are interested in what just happened to my first Super 8 film project, please pop over to my Blogs on the subject at the following link:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... =287448077

This is not rumor or third party information. This happened to me.

The brunt of it is, I bought 5 rolls of Pro8mm/05 film for a very short film project and the lab didn't properly protect the returning film. It was crushed on the route home. The film was sent back on plastic reels in a paper envelope inside a single light weight DHL envelope. It spent 6 days on a semi with other much larger and heavier packages getting abused. You can see the pictures and read the whole thing here.

What makes me the most mad is not potentially loosing this project but their non-admission of guilt in not packaging the returning films correctly and not offering to even replace the damaged film stock.

Please read the blog before doing any further business with Pro8mm and then decide for yourselves if this is just wrong. See pics of the damaged reels in the blog.

Thanks,

Whining over,

Sean

You can read the threads on Cinematography.com here:
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004 ... opic=24395

Sean

[MovieStuff]

Well, in reality, this is how many labs send back S8 processing. We use a heavy box for sending back films and tapes but, for instance, Dwaynes will send back films in a small white envelope. We have received a number of orders from Dwaynes that way. I agree with you that it should have been packaged better. I am only saying that this is not something unique to Pro8mm, I can assure you. If anything, their biggest mistake was simply usin DHL, which is the absolute, hands down, worst possible delivery service in the known galaxy (see the DHL sucks thread). In the future, you might specify that they (or any lab) return the film in the same box that you sent it and that you will pay the extra cost for shipping it that way. Otherwise, they will use the cheapest method possible. Hope your film comes out okay.

Roger

[DeepBlueEditor]

Thanks for the good wishes Roger. Sent my negatives off to Justin Lovell. Hopefully it's not to warped for his unit that I think he got from you. Looking forward to seeing the results.

Still, just doesn't seem right knowing a package will be bouncing around with folks that throw boxes for a living, that anyone not consider that by using proper packaging. I suppose the question asks then, where is the line? If Super8 and regular 8mm film is treated this way, why is 16mm not sent back in a paper envelope? Why not 35mm?

One of the things I had mentioned to the gal at Pro8m is that she had no idea if I was a producer/director working on some expensive MTV project that decided to go with Super8 for aesthetic or artistic reasons. How would I expect treatment of my film project vs what actually happened?

Thanks,

Love your devices. I have been thinking of picking one up lately. Nobody in Ohio seems to have one available.

Sean

[mattias]

i regularly send film in paper envelopes and get them back the same way, and never had a problem. i think once a reel from kodak was cracked but the film was fine. it probably only works for regular mail though, parcel mail and courier places your film in the company of much harder and heavier boxes, which seems to be the problem here. sorry, and i hope it turn out ok.

/matt

[gianni1]

My 16mm K25 (100') from Dwaynes was FedX'ed (to the United Kingdom) in heavy duty packaging, while their Super8 comes back as a spool in a padded envelope USP. Sorry to hear of your misfortune! At least you got it delivered!

Gianni

[super8man]

And NOW you know the NUMBER 1 REASON why I support walmart super 8 processing...the film travels by couriers who DEAL WITH FILM. I have NEVER had a problem with film through a "lab" such as walmart. In fact, knowing the film will take a SAFE course to wind its way to the lab and back.

But when it comes to hoping your film comes back directly from the lab that processes it when you do it yourself, it gets complicated, as this case shows.

[Angus]

Just to add...

I have many times had film returned in paper envelopes...that was the way Kodak and Agfa did their process-paid film for many decades and I never had a film crushed, nor heard of anyone who did.

Of course they were dealing with strictly amateur film when using the paper envelopes but I doubt many of the millions of films so mailed were ever crushed.

Just recently I had some films from Dwaynes come back to me in the UK via USPS priority air mail in a thin card envelope...no trouble whatsoever. They were on the same white plastic reels in your photos.

Andec in Berlin will often re-use the container you post your films to them in, this makes sense if it can be re-used. Andec also, in my limited experience, splice neg films together and mount onto a larger reel. If you send 3 neg carts they send you back a 200' reel with your 3 processed neg films spliced together. This is inside a metal can which isn't going to get crushed. At least that is my experience, YMMV. That of course is a service aimed at and acceptable to professional film-makers.

I've not had any personal trouble with DHL but just read Roger's trials and tribulations. No postal service or courier should be crushing packages.

[DeepBlueEditor]

I think it's just plain wrong to use a paper envelope for anything other than photographs. I've even had those slightly mangled in the past. Why would anyone not take the extra time and a few cents to package materials correctly, in a slightly more crush proof container? I admit this is the first time I have had Super 8 come back this way. I have received Super8 reversal film from Dwayne's and Regular 8 from Film and Video Services, in individual white cardboard boxes. Yes they are thin cardboard boxes but they worked out better than none at all could under the same circumstances. I guess if nobody is taking 8mm and Super8 seriously, that might explain it.

It's odd to think my MiniDV tapes are better protected and cost many many times less per finished minute. Isn't that odd. Try to be a professional, shoot film, and get treated less than professional? Strange.

I would like to think if we all demanded to have better packing, we might get it. Still, as most of you are saying, it seems to mostly be an issue with DHL and the way they handle smaller packages.

Originally Pro8mm kept pushing for me to take it up with DHL but unless the shipment was insured with them, I see no reason they would pay up. Also, since I have been assure Pro8mm has changed their packaging and now double envelopes outgoing shipments, DHL would surely say, as I would, they must have recognized they were not providing enough protection or they wouldn't have changed their procedures.

Anyway, hopefully my splicing the negatives together onto a 400' reel will flatten it a bit and Justin can get some good images off it for me.

Sean

[MovieStuff]

I think it's just plain wrong to use a paper envelope for anything other than photographs. I've even had those slightly mangled in the past.

I can assure that anything heavy enough to crack and crease your film on the reel would do even more damage to photos in a paper envelope. Not bein argumentative but if you think that paper envelopes are okay for photographs under the same conditions, then it isn't unreasonable that film on a plastic reel would be okay, as well.

Why would anyone not take the extra time and a few cents to package materials correctly, in a slightly more crush proof container?

I am sure they will do anything that you ask and pay extra for. But, as others have noted, super 8 has been sent this way for decades with little or no problems. The issue isn't that Pro8mm followed the same procedures as other labs. The problem is that DHL sucks. At least Pro8mm is changing their packaging to make up for DHL's problems. At least give them that credit. That the world should wipe DHL's butt for them is just crazy. If anything, Pro8mm should just use a more reliable courier.

Roger

[Angus]

The films left Pro8 in good condition....travelled for a few days in DHL's system and arrived on your doorstep damaged.

That is DHL's responsibility.

One more thing (God I sound like Columbo)...you mentioned the cardboard boxes Dwayne's use...so I assume Pro8 use no boxes at all? It wouldn't have hurt...although Kodak and the competition never used to "in the day".

Andec seem to have the best idea...re-use the customer's packaging. After all its greener and you can assume the customer is satisfied with the strength of that form of package. And for neg film mount on a reel and send in a metal can.

[S8 Booster]

not completely analog but another company blew a total of 12 cartridges over a couple of years.

half of them claimed to be "lost" in space" aka Zap:

They can't fix yer brakes
You ask 'em, *"Where's my motor?"*
*"Well, it was eaten by snakes..."*
You can stab 'n' shoot 'n' spit
But they won't be fixin' it
They're lyin' an' lazy
They can be drivin' you crazy

no film replacement.

and the rest put in the wrong chemicals at processing (replaced with new/man films)

allthough not for a project i am pretty pzd because i really put efforts in shooting all of these films and they would have been spectacular for my hoime movie project.

pzing me in direction of video although (puke) i cannot see it happen....
budd ill be lot more careful in shipping n marking the fils with <<prozezing>> spec along with the carts.....

shoot.....

[David M. Leugers]

For thirty years I used the little yellow mailer to send in my 8mm and S-8mm films to Kodak for processing. Every single one came back protected by the same silly type of little paper envelope undamaged. As much as I dislike the post office, you have to give them credit over DHL and their questionable practices. I wouldn't blame Pro 8 unless you specifically requested or was promised better packaging...
This is a good lesson for all, hopefully Pro 8 was made aware of this so they can change their practices to better serve their customers.


David M. Leugers

[mattias]

and the rest put in the wrong chemicals at processing

a bit ot but this reminds me. my wife went to icp in new york and it was common there for students to pour the chemicals into the wrong containers, ruining the next person's rolls. it helps you develop (ahem) a good sense of smell. :-)

/matt

[MIKI-814]

The films left Pro8 in good condition....travelled for a few days in DHL's system and arrived on your doorstep damaged.

That is DHL's responsibility.

If your contract is with Pro8mm, you pay to Pro8mm, you are working with and paying to pro8mm for the whole service, and they are the "sender" that "sends" the item to you, it's their own responsbility to their clients.

Also, DHL would later be responsable to Pro8mm, but you as a client of Pro8mm must not know whether they choose DHL for their returning service, UPS, KKK or GGG.

[mattias]

If your contract is with Pro8mm, you pay to Pro8mm, you are working with and paying to pro8mm for the whole service, and they are the "sender" that "sends" the item to you, it's their own responsbility to their clients.

what are you basing this on? it doesn't ring true at all. the sender and the recipient are both clients and they both can and should complain to the post office or courier.

you as a client of Pro8mm must not know whether they choose DHL

no, if you don't choose they will for you, but it's still your choice.

/matt