Dropping Super-8 Camera Prices Creates "Confusion"

[Alex]

I've noticed a price dropping phenomenom over the years that boggles my mind. A few years ago, you might spend $300.00 - $400 to buy a Super-8 Camera on E-bay. So you would think nothing of spending $30.00 dollars to ship it, or $100.00 to repair it a year later because you were protecting your investment.

Flash forward to the present, and now many cameras can be purchased for under $100.00. Suddenly, gripes are heard about how "expensive" the shipping is. "I can spend more on the shipping than the camera, WHAT A RIP OFF!!!" 8O 8O

"The repair costs more than the camera, WHAT A RIP-OFF!!! 8O 8O

I call this the "anti-gratitude". Instead of being happy that the money you are saving on the overall lower Super-8 camera prices can go towards a repair of the camera, shipping, or even an andec plate (no I don't work for the company), we compare the price of these Super-8 services or products to the price of a used Super-8 camera, and BELLOW if the product or service costs more than the camera did!!!

Gratitude means appreciating a gain you have received. Gratitude allows us to accept other realities with less hostility.

Anti-Gratitude leads to persistent grumbling about anything and everything because the underlying premise that creates anti-gratitude is flawed. Every decision SHOULD NOT be based on what you paid for your Super-8 Camera. If you know the camera you purchased this year costs $150.00 dollars more 3 years ago, then don't grumble if it costs $150.00 to properly service or repair the camera!

[Guest-]

what I fear is that the drop in price is ominous of something else that we might find more of a reason to gripe about.

[paulcotto]

When I first started collecting cameras about 5 years ago the prices on eBay were very low. Then the prices went up because a bunch of people wanted the high-end models and the cameras were in short supply. Now the prices have leveled off and but are still not as low as 5 years ago.

I did not miss your point about the pressure plate. I still think it's over priced. I think the 200' Beaulieu cartridge was overpriced too. If they produced it for a lower price more people would have bought one, then more film would have sold and they would still have film available. As it stands Kodak pulled the plug on K-25 that was needed to produce the film for that device. Perhaps they will find another source for film to sound stripe who knows... I am building a film-perforating machine, which will cost me about $7000.00 to produce and is many times more complicated to design and build than that pressure plate is. When I am done I am going to charge a low fixed price to reperforate film. Why? Because if I charge too much no one will want my service and I will be stuck with an expensive machine that gathers dust. I will not make a profit until the machine is paid off which will take years most likely. If they want to charge $150.00 for there pressure plate then more power to them. They will miss a large segment of this community that would like to have one. I wish them the best of luck, honestly.

Regards,
Paul Cotto

[Alex]

Actually Paul, it was anothers comment that $150. 00 is more than the price of a camera that motivated me to make this topic post. I think we're on the same page, as we both stated on the other topic post regarding a bulk purchase.

They should go for higher volume of sales and cut the price in half. We agree on that point. And I think it's great you're going to put time and effort into a possible new Super-8 service.

Thumbs up.

[ericMartinJarvies]

as an example, i could take and create a high volume mold for the pressure plate as it is($50.00). i could then make plastic one-offs, for less then $5.00 each, and spend a little time smoothing the surface on a belt sander with fine papaer and polishing cloth. or, i could have a plastics company make 50 of them for about $1000.00, or 500 of them for $2000.00, or 5000 of them for $2500.00. understand? the price is not in line with the costs, plain and simple. and if they spent 10 years perfectign the item, that is their problem. anyone with enough dedcation can perfect a plate like this in a matter of weeks or perhaps a few months. if the orignal carerage pressure plate is plastic, that is riggied, and not smooth, what does the pressure plate have to be chrome finished? perhaps the reason is when the plate is inserted, there is more 'pressure' on the film, and it needs to move through as smoothly as possible. perhaps basic plastic causes the film to run/stick on the plate. i certianly do not know for certain one way or the other, but i do know it would take me only a matter of days to figure it out(film processing time aside).

[Alex]

Making it out of plastic would make me nervous. You accidentally drop it and suddenly you've put a tiny microscopic scuff in it that puts scratches in the film. Even though it's a lot cheaper if it were made out plastic, one may not know about the scratch until they get their film back, and that could be an expensive mistake.

[MovieMaker]

Flash forward to the present, and now many cameras can be purchased for under $100.00. Suddenly, gripes are heard about how "expensive" the shipping is. "I can spend more on the shipping than the camera, WHAT A RIP OFF!!!" 8O 8O

"The repair costs more than the camera, WHAT A RIP-OFF!!! 8O 8O

I call this the "anti-gratitude".

I actually wrote this in another thread simultaneously and I totally agree with you.

Paul: I think that the term "the cheaper now - the more units sold" is not correct in a small market as Super-8. When was the last "invention" for this gauge before the pressure plate? 5 years, 10 years? So if one is willing to invest in such a market it is combined with high risks. Maybe if they had known that the interest in Super-8 will again grow like it did over the last years, maybe they would have made another business plan. Today, simply by observing this forum and all the innovative guys (like yourself) people are I think more willing to experiment with new gimmicks for us filmmakers. Because now we do know that we aren´t alone in the Super-8 universe. I´m shure that you wouldn´t have thought about making that perf machine, with hours of work and 7.000,- if it was just for your own needs. Now you know that the interest is here and you can perform a better price policy to return your investment and make us happy.

Eric: See what happens? You already tinker over the possibility making the pressure plate out of plastic to lower the costs (although I think that plastic over plastic does not make any sense). Stealing an idea and making cheap rip-offs that do not offer the same quality is exactly what happened to many good inventions over the years until the "originals" disappeared because of that price dumping. But I think that our exclusive Super-8 world should not have the same destiny. Let´s make movies - but with high quality equipment for the right price!

MovieMaker

[ds21z]

The Digital Age has arrived with a Roar & the $$$ & centavo fuel that drives everthing (almost) in the world now is completely behind it. Film in all its permutations is becoming an anachronism, a vintage fashion, an auteur prejudice, at least from the economic vantage point.

Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Foma, Polaroid, all of them are feeling the heat big time. The economics of designing and building Super 8 cameras (soon all film cameras) has evaporated with the Digital Age. This is precisely because the mass market was not interested in the care and labor that quality filmmaking or photography required and were all too ready to jump the film camera ship as soon as it docked in Cheap Easy And Simple Enterprise port (CEASE). Polaroid's mainstay was instant gratification, which the digital deamon has supplanted and surpassed with its easy of cheap duplication. Then Polaroid's second tier of support, the professional photographer who needed instant confirmation of his lighting and filtration setups has also all but disappeared thanks to the digital deamon that is cheap, quick, easy, and mess free! Will Polaroid survive as a specialty, niche market? Who knows?

Know anyone still producing horse drawn wheat combines? Or commercial shipyards producing Yankee Clippers?

While digital is its own, legitimate format and will require just a much labor and talent to achieve top notch creative and artistic results, for the average Joe Consumer it is an economic and "sweat equity" no-brainer. So any going business that needs the economy of scale and the mass market to keep developement and production costs at a reasonable levels is going to follow that mass market where ever it chooses to go -- or die!

So where does that leave film people, especially the Super 8 crowd? A niche market. A small, hobby or auteur driven specialty market. Any question what that means? Just look at any other small, esoteric, niche hobby market and you will see your future also. If, that is, there will continue to be enough market to keep film producers in business. Costs will change, but more by shifting around in other areas rather than getting cheaper! Cameras have become cheaper by comparison because there are fewer people willing to pay to use them -- that's why 16mm is now so incredibly cheap. But as the mass market for film dries up, other costs will come into play and probably balance it all out. 20 years ago Super 8 cameras came in the "dirt cheap and lousy" up to the "very expensive and functional" range, just as you have in the still photo market. The low and middle died first, being the most sensitive to mass market forces, and the high end finally went when the costs of their production became too much whithout any "cheap end" base to support it.

Once you could find sales, repair, and lab support for Super 8 almost anywhere, but that went the way still photo finishing sales, repair, and labs are now disappearing. The only reason 1-hour photo labs are still around is the very low end of the film market. Digital has to this moment failed to become cheap enough and final output easy and fast enough to completely supplant 35mm film -- but it is rapidly gaining on that goal. Soon all film and 8mm will be only a niche market and a lot of the costs involved, costs that were minor before, will become quite high, as that is the only way people and businesses will find it profitable to support a small specialty market. Most people who are heavily dedicated to a niche market that lacks mass market support have had to face this reality, no matter how cheap the initial "buy in" seemed. 8mm has only very recently lost its consumer base and therefore, being only recently "obsolete" has only recently seen it low point in terms of price. But due to the scarcity of equipment and services, and the associated attrition rate of parts, equipment, and service, prices are sure to go up soon.

Those who are dedicated will have to bear that price, often a heavy price, just to keep the minimum tools of their hobby available. Some, like Paul Cotto, will end up paying many, many times the normal cost of usage in order to make their hobby viable. The really serious issue facing all film users now, still and cinema, will be how many paying consumers of film will there be and for how long? As soon as digital can do nearly as well as film as easily (or easier), and as cheaply (or more likely, cheaper) the huge comercial market and the equally huge mass consumer market are gone because they are ruthless in their quest for cheap, easy, and effortless. These markets are now the mainstays of what remains of film manufacturers. Once that is gone all that will be left will be small specialty manufacturers or large manufacturers who choose to keep a niche item on their stock list. And the prices will go up accordingly.

Film, especially 8mm and Super 8, was cheap for our parents ( or us old folks) who could enjoy the ripe benefits of a large and vibrant economic base to support innovation and mass market scale econonmies. That's over now. Expect prices to rise. Hope it doesn't disappear too soon. Explore methods of producing your own film. Find a nice cabinet to display your nice antique film cameras and gear!

Ds21z

[ericMartinJarvies]

nicely stated!

[Alex]

It may have been nicely stated, and accurate, but it was not complete.

The mantra that all our tools should be computer based is nonsense.
The fact that digital continues to make strides while offering an inferior but improving product speaks to the brainwashing of the masses.

It doesn't have to be better, it just has to be instant.8O I would be ASHAMED, not proud, when stating that as the global reality we live in.

A real artist doesn't believe in instantaneousness, they create from the real world, and perhaps modify their creation on a computer.

Film Origination, Digital Destination. Not for every scenario, but for many scenarios. Super-8 now competes with Digital, and in many festivals, the Super-8 wins out, why...???

Because learning how to multiply on a calculator is different than first learning how to multiply with pencil and paper, or horse and buggy as you call it.

[paulcotto]

While all you said has allot of truth to it, why do people still make paintings. Film does a better job of capturing an image. They do it for aesthetic beauty and to convey a feeling or higher idea. I will still make super-8 film available until no one will buy it. Then if I'm the last one still using it I will make it for my self. That’s the real reason I am building my machine. I don't want economics to tell me I can’t have film for my cameras.

Regards,
Paul Cotto


[quote="ds21z"]The Digital Age has arrived with a Roar & the $$$ & centavo fuel that drives everthing (almost) in the world now is completely behind it. Film in all its permutations is becoming an anachronism, a vintage fashion, an auteur prejudice, at least from the economic vantage point.

[ericMartinJarvies]

i received a differant message from his text then you, and perhaps anyone else. thus is the power and weakness of interpitation by proxy.

i live in a FREE country. which is to say, i am not exposed to thsoe sses like an american would be. although i am american, i do not live in america. this was a choice i made, one of the few free choices i could make while living in america. however, once i travelled to a handfull of other countries, and spent time living in other countries, it was only then thati, an americna, realized that i was never livin the most free country in the world. i was actually in a concentration camp and did not even know it. i was raised to beleive i was living under freedom, but only when i left america did i realize otherwise. americans are not responsble for their own actions, nor can they make their own decisions. you dont beleive me? let me give you a perfect example:

you grow up and meet a mate. the two of you, together, alone, decide to procreate, and make another human being. you did this together, and only the two of you were involved. months later, you deliver your new child, human being into the world. all the time up and to that point the two of you maintained your existence so the well being of the child in embryo would be maintained according to the standards set forth under your government. when the child was born, you cared for the child, and made decisions regarding the rearing of your child. what to feed him, what to cloth him with, what kind of shelter and protection, and on and on. now you made these choises within the 'socially acceptable' guidelines of your government, envorinment. being careful not to do something that may offend other peole, or your local, state, or federal governance. now one day, you and your mate decide to part ways. you do so following conventional methods, again, dictated to you under your system. now at this point, you have done something that your government beleives is out of your control, and you are not capable of making the correct decision for your child. so they get involved. now then, years after you and your mate conceived this chld, you stand in front of a counsler, who you have only just met. this person, working on behalf of your government, will follow a form, and catagorize you and your mate accordingly. you then find yourself standing in front of a judge, whom you have only just met, and this judge will take all of the controlled decisions you have made from the moment of conception, and perhaps in as little as 10 minutes, will make a deicsion on what is best for you, your mate, and your child. this judge will basically enforce new rules into your life that will literally dictate the remaining protion of your life as a result of his power of you. this judge will tell the father he has to pay 'x' amount of money for 'x' amount of time. he will tell the father when and how often he can visit with his child. he will spell it out nice and clear, and make a binding order for which you must adher to and follow. and if you protest this, he will certainly take away what little he actually left for you. this is his own power over you, in addition to the government's. so, you now have a judge, with whom you have only met, and he knows not you good qualities, nor your bad qualities, nor you to him. he most certainly was not part of the procreation process when you and your mate made a consious decision to create a new human being, a child. he most certainly was not there when you had to pay for the doctors delivery bills, or all the visits thereafter. he was not there when you had to scout for food and shlter for your mate and child. he was not there when you had to make important decisions regaridng your childs faith, well being, education, etc and so forth. and on and on and on. but now, before you, for a brief moment in your long and tangled history, this judge is making decisions on how you, your mate, and your child will live your lives.

do you understand this?? this is at the very core of the human procreation process in america, and a number of other countries, but mainly just america. so who are you trying to fool when you even attempt to justify industry and trade, which is politically controlled, and is the very system which enslaves you and your family?? come on folks, get real ... as long as you live in a country that controls you from the moment you are conceived, you will never be free, nor will anyone ever be able to do things for the simple sake of just ding them. there wil always be a price under this type of system, always.

what? another example? social security. how many americans have a social security card? is it mandatory? no. can you operate in america without one? nope.

taxes? do you have a say in where your money goes? nope! get real if you think your vote makes a differance ... the only differnace it makes is which politition will be in office ot strick deals with anyone of special interest. plain and simple.

drugs? what, columbia and mexico are the reasons america has a drug problem? get real. americans use drugs, they demand drugs. what do you think pays for all the military and police officers in america? your tax dollars? ya right!! the drug business, it is good business for polititions, and great business for the actual government. they manage the drug busness better then they manage anything else just about.

insurance? ok, lets create a system that creates more jobs. lets take responsiblity off of the person and place it in a purgatory subsiderary of a joint partnership between government and big business. the goal? one should be able to step off a curb that was 2 inches higher then spec, and this person should have the ability to sue the city. why? well, let see, if this person can blame everyone else, then everyone else will have to be involved. this means economic stimulas. hire the attorney. hire the doctor. hire more government officials to handle to case loads. the liar and the doctor nad the government offices need more equipment to process the ever growing information systems, which need to be sent to and from ... both in transport(automobiles and oil) and telecommunications(tele, fax, and email). and on and on and on.

oil? this one is too obvious, i need not waste my words on this one. i will sum it up in one word: consumption.

so, will film die? will digital take over? i guess that depends on where you live and the liberties afforded to you under your controlling system. if your citizens are being nicely controlled by their governemnt, then i would say film will die in your area. if your citizens are in control of them ownselves, then i say film will live as long as they so desire. everything else is in the middle gray area. i choose not to follow the consumption path unless i want or need something from it. i do not let it dictate to me when or what i should buy. if i am the only one making products for super8, or any other medium or area in life, then it obviously is something i want to do ... i do things for me first, then for money socond, or tird, or 100th down on the list. i wish i did nthing for the sake of money, i wish money making ws not even on my list of priorities. i wish creating and giving and helping were the mainstays in my life. i wish i could make somethng for each of you, and give it to you freely, without condition, and without causing financial stress or otherwise on me.

[Alex]

However, in America the women is respected more than in any other country, that is why you stand in front of a judge when you divorce. In other countries, women are circumcised at birth, FORCED to wear veils, stripped of their power arbitrarily, married off part in parcel with a dowry.

What you are saying is America is a Corportocracy, which it is.
The biggest failure of our system has been that election dollars are not anonymously put into a big fund and doled out to the major parties equally.

If that one thing were done, than the President could stand up to Corporate America rather than stand with it, and the system would right itself overnight.

[Guest-]

The Paradox of the Super 8 craze is as follows:
When consumer level video cameras were available they replaced, to a large extent, consumer level movie (film) cameras. Why? because at one time the average Joe could only project his movies on the wall and when Video was available to the masses all they had to do is plug the cassette( that they just finished shooting) into a little electronic box thing that is attatched to their tv sets and they got insant images. Therefore, a significant portion of the consumer masses said:"why bother with movie cameras?" That was then. A few years go by and video technology improves and professionals in the motion picture business start thinking to themselve: "wait a miniute these 'amateur' level cameras, some of them high end and made by the top companies are not so 'amateur as we once thought because now you can do more than just project them on to the wall." The improvement in video technology gave new life to Super 8 to the point of almost making it a professional movie making format. You no longer had to worry about adding sound striping to the actual film strip so the frailty issue wasn't there. The expensive option of blowing it up to a larger guage was not longer the only option. Professionals that worked in film and video realized the application that video could have with some of these top notch well designed cameras. With considerably less money you could do professional work in this small guage without spending a fortune and as many of us have found out some of the better Super 8 cameras are capable of producing the most brilliant images. The Paradox that comes into play is that the very thing that made Super 8 rise from the ashes might very well bring about it's demise in the very near future. Who knows? Will video technology, which gave new life to super 8, bring about it's demise as a result of it's improvements? who knows? We always seem to come back to this discussion even if only with a different twist. The only way to get the best of both worlds allowing Super 8 to survive is if video's improvement is only in the area of resolution. This way, we get the most out of our film resolution and view it through the ease of video. We get the pallette of film, the ease of video as a final result of any filmmaking project

[ericMartinJarvies]

but that is the problem, the system should not be one big system. it should be comprised of as many smaller systems as need be, based on the citizens wants and desires, not on the systems wants and desires. laws need to change with people and with times, and not all laws are applicable to all people, in other words, you should have the choice to agree to bind yourself to one law or the other, or not. some countries treat woman pooly, amercia treated woman poorly 50 years ago, and black 100 years ago, and so on. no one country is exempt from their past ,and everyone has a past. the treatment of wmoan have nothign to door with the judge analogy i wrote, whereas the freedom to choose has EVERYTHING to do with it, and what is most important, even more so then that freedom, is the right of the child to have tiem with both contributing factors in is or her life. this is life itself, and everything else like super8 is a result of life itself. so if it is starting off bad, you cant expect it to end up anything better, can you? it needs to start good. we need ot start purging ourselves through our children, and them through theirs. we need to abolish the politicol and financial control that is imposed on us and our families as living human beings.

what i am trying to deliver in terms of a message, be it super8, or life involving super8, or super8 on its own two feet, is that it should only matter to the person, and not to the industry. mankind needs to rework a ton of things so that we can enjoy what makes us happy, not having to settle for things because a market dictates it or not. we are born into a world that is given to us, we do not have to pay for this right or privelage upon entry. but traditional systems as far back as 2400bc, when systems like the egyptian chronogy, priests of babylon, gods of greece, and self realization dynasty of fohi(or yao), have really screwed things up for us. then compound this years later with territory conquests in the 500-400bc period with the likes of neba, alex the g, and the beginnings of the military tribunes of what would become the roman empire, and the real beginning of the mess we find ourselves in today. throw all the religions that have poped up since, and the hundreds of greedy governments ,and you find we have done nothing but move from century to century enslaved in one form or another to one govern,ment or another, all maintaing that money is the solution to the comman mans problems. this could not be further from the truth ... money is the source of all mans problems. why? because we dont have enough of it? why? because we are limited? why? because we the people do not control it! heck, if some alian life form came ot our planet, do you think our paper money woould serve them? or even the mineral ore, like gold, do you htink that will serve them? i think it would only stand to serve them if they figured out it was the way all the citizens here on planet earth remain under the control of just a few hundred individuals. simple as that.

heck, screw plant a tree day, or stop smoking for a day, we should have STOP SPENDING AND RECEIVING AND TRADING MONEY FOR A DAY, UR WEEK!! that would be the first step in what would require many more to purge this control problem, which is a problem for everyone, because we dont have enough money

thinketh it so shall it happen. none of us should be paying for things, we should be contributing to one another, and if someone want s a new super8 camera, those capable should pitch in their time and talents and make it from that person, or group of people, and the same in retrospect. we should earn our money when we give, and lose our money when we take. i give you everything i have, i get everything i want in return. be it from you, them, or evryone or just someone. instead of beng part of a system that does not apply to me, i should be part of a system that completely applies to me. so should each and everyone. and perhaps the only universal rules that govern us as humans would be the common area decency acts that protect us when moving between groups, be they territorial or otherwise. in other words, if i am part of the 'procreation citizens, and decide i would like to visit the 'hunt down and kill animals citizens' for a little vacation, there should be some type of governing laws that ensure my safety, so that the when i pass through the 'big tough weight lifting kick someones ass for looking at your the wrong way citizens, i am protected. and god forbid i get trapped within the 'sexual confusion citizen's' zone, or even worse, happening accross one of those darn 'control freak citizens' who will not allow me to do my own thing for the very life of me, literally.