super16- Bolex vs K3

Post by **gilmata** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:11 am

hi all
i'm looking for a super 16 camera.i only shoot in 16mm and super 8 .
i found that bolex http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1
and that upgrade of K3
http://www.duallcamera.com/store/index.shtml
i have used yet K3 without super16upgrade and i like it.
what do you think it's the best choice?
Do u know other camera with crystalsync by that price?
Thanks
AndrÃƒÂ©

Post by **mattias** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:05 pm

that bolex is not crystal synced, and the k3 is not really a s16 camera, it just has an enlarged gate. if you really need both crystal sync and s16 i'd say the aaton ltr is your best option. it's $7,500 from du-all apparently, but you should be able to find it cheaper. certainly better value than $2,500 for a modded k3. not knowing exactly what you need it for i suggest you get a cheap standard 16mm camera, like a spring wound bolex, for tests and playing around, and then rent a "real" one as needed. usually much cheaper and very convenient.

/matt

Post by **wado1942** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:31 pm

I'd get a K-3 over a Bolex mostly because finding parts is easy and I like the K-3's viewfinder better. You can cut the gate to S-16 specs yourself with hardly any problem and a crystal sync motor is only $400 or so if you ever wanted to go that route.
Actually, if I were to get into super-16 and not regular 16mm, I'd get a modified CP-16R.
If you pay more than $300 for a K-3, you're not looking well enough. Even with an enlarged gate, a new lens mount and a crystal sync motor, $2,500 is too much. You can get a CP-16R for $3,000 which is super stable, takes 400' loads and it's DEAD quiet. Now the motor in a CP-16R comes with a wild DC motor but you can swapt it for an AC sync which means you need an outlet nearby but it's very acurate.

Post by **clivetobin** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:42 am

wado1942 wrote:... a crystal sync motor is only $400 ...
a CP-16R comes with a wild DC motor ....

Corrections:
We don't make the crystal motor for the K-3 any more, sorry. Besides it used to cost $495 and the dealer/installer charged about another $350 to butcher the camera to accept it.

On the other hand we still have some crystal motors left for nearly any clockwork Bolex model at $595 with no installation required.

The CP-16 has a 24 FPS crystal speed although the other speeds are wild. I am not aware of anyone offering an AC synchronous motor installation in a CP to replace the DC crystal motor. Nor would anyone want this.

Post by **wado1942** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:13 am

OK, I thought crystal sync was aftermarket on the CP-16s. There ARE AC sync motors and I actually have a friend with 2 of them. I think they're great because they're a fraction the cost of crystal sync motors. Yeah we have to have an inverter with us but since we'd have to have a battery pack anyway, it's not much extra hassle.

Post by **mattias** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:02 pm

wado1942 wrote:You can get a CP-16R for $3,000

super-16 modded? that's pretty good value. frankly i think there are more important things to consider though. modern film stocks produce excellent results cropped to widescreen as well, and if you really need s16 at some point, say a theatrical blowup, renting is better. crystal sync, good glass, easy handling, reliability, for example all place higher than the width of the gate on my list.

/matt

Post by **Justin Lovell** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:18 pm

I've been shooting some R16 with 50asa 7201 in my bolex and it looks stunning. Even the 7218 (500asa) looks fantastic, as long as it is exposed correctly.

I'm sure the grain would be tighter if it was s16, so I'm contemplating having the modification done.

I've got access to a cp16, but I want to use my bolex lenses on it. Does anyone know if there is an adapter to allow for cmount lenses?

I prefer the bolex for its manual control (variable shutter), however the cp16 really purrs like a kitten...

Post by **wado1942** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:48 pm

Good pont Mattias, that the argument I make all the time with people who only have $5,000 to spend on an HD camera. I pretty much always tell them if they want to waste their money then fine but the lens always suffers in the low price range and that's FAR more important than the number of pixels. The same applies to film. Even moreso actually. Oh, and $3,000 is pretty low for a super-16 CP-16. You CAN get them at that price but usually just the body and possibly a motor.

Post by **gilmata** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:11 am

do u really think CP is best choice?

Post by **christoph** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:46 pm

gilmata wrote:do u really think CP is best choice?

there is no "best" camera, not even regardless of price.
++ christoph ++

Post by **StoneBuilder** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:18 pm

Or 'the best camera is the one you've got with you'.

Post by **gilmata** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:20 pm

i'm just asking in relation between price and what i was looking for.
thanks to all

Post by **wado1942** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:35 pm

Well I personally think CP-16Rs are great and very flexible cameras for the price. "BEST" is highly subjective, but if I personally had $5,000 to spend on a camera, that's probably the one I'd get.

Post by **Nigel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:47 pm

Don't buy an Aaton LTR. You will loose your ass--Not just on the purchase but then semi-annual up keep.

Buy a camera that fits your needs, your budget and one that has a value that won't drop like a dead mobster. I have never been a fan of CPs--I think they are crap. They are bulky and clunky. Roger will chime in and tell me I am an idiot and I will tell him that he is just old and set in his ways.

Good Luck

Post by **mattias** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:31 am

Nigel wrote:Don't buy an Aaton LTR. You will loose your ass--Not just on the purchase but then semi-annual up keep.

well, i wouldn't buy one either, but won't any super-16 crystal sync camera with all the other bells and whistles cost you as much to buy as well as in maintanence? i've used sr2's that haven't been serviced for many years and they work fine, but they cost three times as much to begin with. and the rental cost for an ltr is lower so the cost of owning one has to be too, no?

/matt