Hello all in Super8Land,
I have a pile (at least 25-30 reels) of sound-striped film that I would like to get transferred into the digital realm. I plan on utilizing Moviestuff's (his enthusiasm for our hobby is really infectious... I appreciate what he's doing on this forum) transfer services for my silent footage, however I don't know what is open to me at this point with regards to soundstriped film. I need something that is 100% synced... I'm not interested in playing games with wild sync on this stuff.... it's way too time consuming and very difficult. What are my options for getting soundstriped film transferred to digital? Obviously there are people that will utilize a 5-blade shutter system to transfer film.... but what can i do that's of better quality than this method? I suspect that the few places that do Rank Super8 transfers only deal with silent film.... am I correct on this?
Moviestuff, can you handle transferring frame-accurate, time-synced soundstriped film utilizing your DV8 (i believe that's the name) system?
Thanks for any help.....
SUPER8 RULES!
Paul L.
Options for transferring sound-striped film?
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
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MovieStuff
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Hi, Paul!
We've had a few people ask us about transferring sound film. Obviously we can transfer the image. I have considered using Cranium's resolving software to synch the audio. I would transfer the image using the DV8 and then tranfser the audio using a standard projector with a synch switch like an Elmo ST1200HD and feed a tone through the switch. The resulting spikes would be recorded on the left channel of the wave file and the original sound would be recorded on the right channel. Cranium's resolving software would then create a new wave file that would spread the spikes (and therefore the adjacent audio) very precisely across the duration required for either 24fps or 18fps playback. Each "frame" of audio would be matched exactly against the appropriate "frame" of film.
I have not used this software but it should be dead nuts perfect. In fact, if you have a sound projector with a synch switch, then you could do the sound resolving yourself, which would save some money and would be just as good. I haven't explored the resolving software issue much as my system is NT based and I'm not sure if Cranium's software will work on that. I look into it and see. If it will, then I see no problem in transferring your audio perfectly.
Roger
We've had a few people ask us about transferring sound film. Obviously we can transfer the image. I have considered using Cranium's resolving software to synch the audio. I would transfer the image using the DV8 and then tranfser the audio using a standard projector with a synch switch like an Elmo ST1200HD and feed a tone through the switch. The resulting spikes would be recorded on the left channel of the wave file and the original sound would be recorded on the right channel. Cranium's resolving software would then create a new wave file that would spread the spikes (and therefore the adjacent audio) very precisely across the duration required for either 24fps or 18fps playback. Each "frame" of audio would be matched exactly against the appropriate "frame" of film.
I have not used this software but it should be dead nuts perfect. In fact, if you have a sound projector with a synch switch, then you could do the sound resolving yourself, which would save some money and would be just as good. I haven't explored the resolving software issue much as my system is NT based and I'm not sure if Cranium's software will work on that. I look into it and see. If it will, then I see no problem in transferring your audio perfectly.
Roger
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reg8mm
too lazy to log on
The S8 Hope (Goko) Telecine has a sound pickup for S8 only. It works. I tried it with an old Disney Cartoon. It is just so many frames to the right of the gate. Fast or slow the sound is always in the same place. There is a jack for a mic or line to the sound card in the computer or as I used to do directly to a VHS deck via a line splitter.
It was tried on some home movies. The camera had low light or EXR or something that slowed it down to pick up images better. Too bad the sound also slowed down. It sounded very bad projected and I didn't yet know how to, or have the software to stretch or shrink it properly to fit. That would be a nightmare.
It is hard to believe that such a tiny thing can pick up so much sound.
The Elmo 912 editor viewer also has a clip on sound head to the right of the viewer. Instead of the frame counter or cleaner the sound pickup is put into place. It has a battery compartment and a jack for a line to speakers or amp and speakers.
A crystal sync projector would be needed for really accurate sound playback or recording. Some method would start a CD and recording precisely.
Michael
It was tried on some home movies. The camera had low light or EXR or something that slowed it down to pick up images better. Too bad the sound also slowed down. It sounded very bad projected and I didn't yet know how to, or have the software to stretch or shrink it properly to fit. That would be a nightmare.
It is hard to believe that such a tiny thing can pick up so much sound.
The Elmo 912 editor viewer also has a clip on sound head to the right of the viewer. Instead of the frame counter or cleaner the sound pickup is put into place. It has a battery compartment and a jack for a line to speakers or amp and speakers.
A crystal sync projector would be needed for really accurate sound playback or recording. Some method would start a CD and recording precisely.
Michael
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David M. Leugers
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sound transfers
While I agree that a transfer using Moviestuff's Workprinter would be ideal, it is not necessarily the only way to go depending on your use of the footage. Properly done transfers using an ariel image and proper-speed 5=bladed shutter telecine will give the best sound and an image only slightly below the Workprinter (due to some frames being composed of parts of two different frames). Most people (being average consumers and not film makers) will not notice the difference and will be quite pleased with the results. The telecine projector must have enlarged gates to capture the entire frame, a diffused light source must be used (preferably with less output than normal projection), a sharp lens with accurate focus, projection speed adjusted to run precisely at 24 fps sound speed all must be inherent in the design. The Elmo line of projectors are readily modified to provide excellent results. Personally, I would use this type of transfer for original sound film and use the Workprinter for silent film transfers for optimum image quality. This might be an option worth looking into for you. Good luck with your project.
That´s a very easy job.
Apply a sound sync leader to the film, prior to the transfer, containing at least one clearly marked frame, setting the sync point.
Then only transfer the (silent) film with workprinter.
Afterwards it should be possible to play back the result inside the editing software with the correct framerate and sampling a audio signal at the same time. As it is played back over PC, it is automatically crystal accurate.
The easyest way to play back the original film soundtrack, mono or stereo/duoplay with crystal accurancy, too, is to use an Elmo GS1200MO projector. This projector has a "ESS" input. When you apply a 18 Hz or 24 Hz TTL signal (low-active) to that input, the projector follows exactly that speed. Now only feed it with a crystal frequency generator and the projector will run exactly at the very same speed as the film in the NLE system. Only take care for not applying a too high voltage to the ESS connector, it must be TTL level.
This way, I synced f.e. the complete "dschungle book" film (2 reels of 800 ft each) in nearly one run, sound coming from video tape, recording to the film stripe for restoring the sound track. Only at splices in the original film, corrections had been neccessary.
The process will start in sync, when you forward the NLE system to playback the transfered sync frame and forward the real film until the sync frame appears in the gate (still projection and single frame advance at ELMO GS1200MO). Now you set the Elmo to "ESS" and start. Start the NLE playback & sound sampling at the same time as you switch on the crystal generator, the projector will start and everything will keep in sync, no more software stretching and squeezing of the sound required.
To avoid any extra hardware, you can use an universal square wave generator, it will do the same job like my Elmo interface for crystal control.
Other projectors that can run crystal synced (but with external hardware) are the Bauer studioclass machines and the Braun Visacustic models.
When working with a not crystal synced projector, the absolute speed may not neccessaryly match with the crystal accurate NLE file and you might be successful with 1 pulse per frame registration and software correction.
In this case, note that recording spikes is possible, but recording defined tone bursts is far better. Spikes also may occure from any electrical distortion like switching on/off lamps etc, thus creating additional frames that do not exist.
With spike recording, the S/N ratio is the worst you ever could imagine, because distortions are nearly not distinguishable from real signal. Transforming each reed contact activation into a tone burst is a very simple thing and helps so much.
Pedro
Apply a sound sync leader to the film, prior to the transfer, containing at least one clearly marked frame, setting the sync point.
Then only transfer the (silent) film with workprinter.
Afterwards it should be possible to play back the result inside the editing software with the correct framerate and sampling a audio signal at the same time. As it is played back over PC, it is automatically crystal accurate.
The easyest way to play back the original film soundtrack, mono or stereo/duoplay with crystal accurancy, too, is to use an Elmo GS1200MO projector. This projector has a "ESS" input. When you apply a 18 Hz or 24 Hz TTL signal (low-active) to that input, the projector follows exactly that speed. Now only feed it with a crystal frequency generator and the projector will run exactly at the very same speed as the film in the NLE system. Only take care for not applying a too high voltage to the ESS connector, it must be TTL level.
This way, I synced f.e. the complete "dschungle book" film (2 reels of 800 ft each) in nearly one run, sound coming from video tape, recording to the film stripe for restoring the sound track. Only at splices in the original film, corrections had been neccessary.
The process will start in sync, when you forward the NLE system to playback the transfered sync frame and forward the real film until the sync frame appears in the gate (still projection and single frame advance at ELMO GS1200MO). Now you set the Elmo to "ESS" and start. Start the NLE playback & sound sampling at the same time as you switch on the crystal generator, the projector will start and everything will keep in sync, no more software stretching and squeezing of the sound required.
To avoid any extra hardware, you can use an universal square wave generator, it will do the same job like my Elmo interface for crystal control.
Other projectors that can run crystal synced (but with external hardware) are the Bauer studioclass machines and the Braun Visacustic models.
When working with a not crystal synced projector, the absolute speed may not neccessaryly match with the crystal accurate NLE file and you might be successful with 1 pulse per frame registration and software correction.
In this case, note that recording spikes is possible, but recording defined tone bursts is far better. Spikes also may occure from any electrical distortion like switching on/off lamps etc, thus creating additional frames that do not exist.
With spike recording, the S/N ratio is the worst you ever could imagine, because distortions are nearly not distinguishable from real signal. Transforming each reed contact activation into a tone burst is a very simple thing and helps so much.
Pedro
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S8 Booster
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DIY Film with sync sound transfer.
Paul, just a suggestion.
Have recently seen some S8 off the projected screen filmed sequences that are exceptionally good. It seem that with a decent camera (if you can borrow or rent one), Canon Xl-1 (I believe it actually inverts neg film too + eliminate the orange layer) and, I believe, Sony VX2000 as examples but there are many more By this cams it is possible to "tune" out the flicker etc by manual settings of shutter speeds etc.
The image quality will not or may not be quite up to Rogers services but the Sync Sound is easily retained at the transfer to the DV as you plug the projector sound line output directly into the Vcam´s Line input. Depends how far you need to go on the image quality.
I have done this myself with a LQ video camera, the pics were bad but the sound came out excellent.
Have recently seen some S8 off the projected screen filmed sequences that are exceptionally good. It seem that with a decent camera (if you can borrow or rent one), Canon Xl-1 (I believe it actually inverts neg film too + eliminate the orange layer) and, I believe, Sony VX2000 as examples but there are many more By this cams it is possible to "tune" out the flicker etc by manual settings of shutter speeds etc.
The image quality will not or may not be quite up to Rogers services but the Sync Sound is easily retained at the transfer to the DV as you plug the projector sound line output directly into the Vcam´s Line input. Depends how far you need to go on the image quality.
I have done this myself with a LQ video camera, the pics were bad but the sound came out excellent.
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
Thanks
Thanks for all the replies....
The reason I'm not enamored with the prospect of using a 5 blade-shuttered projector (aside from the fact that I don't own one myself) or by using the "film the screen" method with this film footage is that I don't want to have problems in the editing stage. I much prefer having a frame by frame transfer because there won't be any 'combination' frames, and I can also use individual frames as snapshots for other purposes.
Roger, I'm interested in your sound transfer method and I'm sure we'll be talking more about it in the future. If you do any actual tests of this method, I'd love to hear/see the results. In the meantime, I expect to send 6-10 reels off to you for transfer and will talk to you about how you would like me to prepare them.
Thanks again,
Paul
The reason I'm not enamored with the prospect of using a 5 blade-shuttered projector (aside from the fact that I don't own one myself) or by using the "film the screen" method with this film footage is that I don't want to have problems in the editing stage. I much prefer having a frame by frame transfer because there won't be any 'combination' frames, and I can also use individual frames as snapshots for other purposes.
Roger, I'm interested in your sound transfer method and I'm sure we'll be talking more about it in the future. If you do any actual tests of this method, I'd love to hear/see the results. In the meantime, I expect to send 6-10 reels off to you for transfer and will talk to you about how you would like me to prepare them.
Thanks again,
Paul
SHOOT FILM!