Telecine. What would you do?

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

I wildly disagree. Kodachrome-I stock from 60+ years ago has not even lost 5% of its color if it was residing in metal cans. It most likely lasts another 60 years easily.

OK, and exactly how much old films have you seen? I see old films every day, it is my work. I have seen a loooooot of bad colors, believe me. ;)

Not all films are kodachrome either. And I have seen bad kodachrome too (if it is from age or bad processing, or both old and badly processed I have no idea).

In 50 years, we might be a lot better with true archiving skills. Today, no archive medium introduced in the last 20 years lasted longer then a couple of years. Who can read my old Atari HD? Ever tried to copy a 5.25" floppy? Did you also do data backups on VHS tapes to regret it?

OK, now I know you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can´t even compare the data-standards 20 years ago and the standards from today. And it would have been no problem to copy from a 5.25" floppy to a 3,5" floppy to a CD to a DVD and later to the next standard. If you do it before it is too late. ;)

VHS tapes? Goddamn right you need to make digital copies from your old VHS tapes! how long do you think those old magnetic tapes last, really? Tehy get old, picture turns bad, and if you don´t copy your VHS tapes... you will regret it.

Or: Is the first CD you burnt on that $2000 dual-speed burner still readable? Really?

The first? I have no idea, probably not.

You are comparing the FIRST discs anyone ever could burn to the DVD discs of today? OK, sounds fair and like a good comparison... :roll:

[Tom Doolittle]

Yes, my viewpoint is maybe a little radical today. :lol:

Well, maybe a little.

Obviously there are advantages to digital copies. For one, you don't wear out the film running it through the projector over and over again. And its pretty hard to share clips with friends and family all over the world when all you have is one original!

I love film, but sometimes you've got to give in and get on the bandwagon.

[Tom Doolittle]

Okay, simmer down, fellas.

We can all agree that technology is constantly changing, which is why only a complete moron would throw away their original film after having it transferred. Twenty years from now I'll probably be able to transfer the same footage again, only at a much higher resolution (it'll probably cost a million bucks, but that's the way it goes).

[peaceman]

@Kent: With VHS backups I meant computer data backups on VHS tape -- in the late 80s that was briefly promoted as probably the longest lasting backup method ever (with bogus arguments like "decades of experience with magnetic tape" and "improvement of digital technolgy" etc.

Regarding the rest you say: You take me too serious. My thoughts were mostly philosophical. No need to be offensive.

Make as many digital copies of your footage as you like -- I stick with my unique, aging S8 rolls that I watch occassionally enough to let them last for another loooooong time. And as I said, I will wait for a media type that proves to last 50+ years before I spend time with it. (And yes, that is another peersonal, subjetive decision!)

Peace!

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

Hey, I wan´t trying to be offensive.
Sorry if it seemed like that... Peace!

I just reacted a bit to the comparison of old data standards and today. (in another forum a guy was telling everyone JPG images won´t be able to be "decoded" in the future, "just look at old Atari stuff, can you read it today"... and crazy stuff like that).

You cannot compare the compability of old computer standards and the compability of computer standards today.

I guess magnetic tapes was the best they had back then, so they were surely correct when they said it was the best. ;) Optical discs are pretty new (and much better than magnetic tapes and discs, of course).

Another safely measure you can take with digital images is backup. You can keep a copy in a bank vault, a copy at a friends house and one copy for viewing at home. Even if your house would burn down or something else accidental would happend, you have your backups. ;)

Seriously, look at your oldest footage, if it is Kodachrome all of it you can feel pretty safe. but if you have Agfa, Ferrania, Geavert, or whatever else... The colors ain´t gonna be pretty.

I have seen Ferrania reels that are totally red. All colors are in shades from pink to red. Many reels. And pretty much all Agfa I have seen (that is old) has bad colors, some have realllly bad colors. So film don´t last forever.

If you have films with bad colors it can still be digitalised and pretty much colorcorrected, but if you wait too long (like the Ferranias...) you end up with loosing all the colors, because it looks best if turned to black & white. ;)

I´m not trying to pick a fight here, as long as you are happy with viewing your filmoriginals you should do so, of course!

(by the way, it´s not only the film itself that turns bad, splices ain´t pretty if they are old and not done properly, or if you have used tape splices...) ;)

[clivetobin]

...Moviestuff? Elmo? Homebrew (modify one of my exisiting projectors)???...

I am a bit hurt that you don't consider or mention the Tobin Video Transfer TVT-8 machines.

The new J Type transfers frame by frame in real time with zero flicker. You can quickly record directly to DVD with a minimum of fuss. Exposure is peak-sensing automatic suitable for most film, or you can switch to center-weighted averaging for dark backlit stuff. Image quality totally blows away the old Elmo TRVs from what users tell us. And many users have been happy enough with the first one to buy as many as seven of them.

You will not be able to buy two of them, or even one of them, for the budget mentioned. But someone having one, and there are now over 100 of them in use worldwide, will probably do the job for that amount. Even we normally would, except we are too busy building them to accept any transfers right now.

If your local transfer house does not yet have a stable of TVT-8s and is using old worn-out Elmos, or is projecting on to his toaster or something using an ordinary and thus flickering projector, you might point him toward our web site and then he could do a good job for you. We will be happy to send a demo DVD, or do a small sample transfer, for a potential purchaser. The descriptive page is here: http://www.tobincinemasystems.com/page32.html

Off subject somewhat, does anyone know how bad a job Walmart does on video transfers for 8 cents a foot?

[super8man]

Its actually quite a lot of film for that kind of limited budget. Now, having said that, you are in the realm of "doing business with friends and family" and so the rate is acceptable since at the end of the day everyone's feelings will get hurt with misunderstandings of expectations but at least you would have the money (be sure to get it up front).

From the sounds of it, IF you had a FAST computer and IF you had a decent miniDV camera, you could go the self transfer route IF you enjoy the technical aspect of dealing with film mixed with computers in general.

However, IF you are simply going to get in/get out and this will be the first and last film job you deal with, then you should simply organize your films and have a local transfer house transfer as much as you can until the money runs out. My guess is the money would run out before the film does. 20,000 feet is quite a lot.

Best of luck to you. My bet is you will go the latter route since from your postings you suggested it might not be as simple as you might expect once you got into all the gory details that transferring film entails (on ANY transfer device).

Best of luck,
Mike

[Nigel]

I agree with Super8man for the most part.

Can you transfer a small portion on a really high end machine with a good colorist and then get him/her to give you more money??

Good Luck

[mattias]

And it would have been no problem to copy from a 5.25" floppy to a 3,5" floppy to a CD to a DVD and later to the next standard.

that's the handling the symptom that people are using, yes, but it doesn't cure the disease. having to copy everything every few years is *not* archiving.

as for your amount of film and budget, it doesn't sound impossible to find a place that can do it for you. kent and andreas only charge a bit more and they represent the high end. there must be someone with a wp and some time to spare out there?..

/matt

[Angus]

Don't confuse converting to DVD or hard disc with archiving.

Despite what has been said about colour fade....even Ektacrhome films will last longer than any DVD or hard disc.

But a DVD is, today, much more convenient to view.

[Tom Doolittle]

...Moviestuff? Elmo? Homebrew (modify one of my exisiting projectors)???...

I am a bit hurt that you don't consider or mention the Tobin Video Transfer TVT-8 machines.

Sorry Clive. I didn't mean to exclude your excellent products from this discussion, and frankly I'm surprised nobody mentioned them earlier. I did spend a good deal of time reading through your material online, and would love to see your machines in action, but as I was angling towards the home-use side of things, your stuff is way beyond our budget. If I decide to hand this project off to a pro telecine outfit, I will certainly mention your products. My guess is they will already know about them.

For everyone else, thanks for all the input. I apologize for posting such an ambiguous scenario. I threw out the big drift-net just to see what I would catch.

Clearly there are quite a few variables to this telecine thing I never considered before. I've already received several estimates to transfer the footage for me, and I appreciate those offers to try and work within my budget. But I think I'd prefer to do it myself.

I've studied (via the web) the commercially available machines that fall within or near to my stated budget. I had a long telephone conversation with Roger Evans about his Workprinter and Sniper units. They sound very promising and I am eagerly awaiting a demo DVD from Moviestuff.

Although I cannot afford them, I researched machines like those offered by Clive Tobin and others who generally supply a more professional segment of the market. If I opt for the pro route I expect to see one of these machines used for the job.

I do shoot a fair amount of film myself, enough to justify owning my own telecine equipment even after this project is completed, so I'll likely opt for the Workprinter. My crappy miniDV cam will have to do initally, but I'll probably upgrade to something in the HD world within a few months. It will be interesting to see just how much more detail an HD cam will pull out of a Super8 frame.

Again, thanks for all the help.

[steve hyde]

....I haven't read the posts, but I will offer an answer to your question:

If I had 20,000 feet of historical super 8 films I would contact all of the post houses that I work with and ask them to bid on the work at a *volume rate*.

I would contact:

CinePost in Atlanta
Cinelab in Boston
FSFT in Seattle
and Spectra in Southern California

I would negotiate for a good bid on an hourly rate.

Then I would ask for a "one light with minor adjustments" transfer on all of the material. If you find diamonds, you can always take the reel back to the post house for scene to scene detail work..

good luck. I would love to see this stuff...

Steve

[Will2]

....I haven't read the posts, but I will offer an answer to your question:

If I had 20,000 feet of historical super 8 films I would contact all of the post houses that I work with and ask them to bid on the work at a *volume rate*.

Extremely good idea. This will save you HOURS upon HOURS of trying to do it yourself. If you have alot of time on your hands, than fine, but otherwise I'd try Steve's recomendation.

Maybe you could split the job up between a couple of the houses he suggests for faster results.

Having a WorkPrinter or one of Clive's machines would be great, but $2500 might not cover it and plus your time is valuable too. Think about what you make per hour but add up all that time and see what it would be worth to you.

There are also plenty of "DVD Mills" out there that would probably meet your budget, but the results may not be better than what he had seen before.

[JhnZ33]

Don't confuse converting to DVD or hard disc with archiving.

Despite what has been said about colour fade....even Ektacrhome films will last longer than any DVD or hard disc.

But a DVD is, today, much more convenient to view.

Not to mention, a safer way to view archival footage.

[VideoFred]

I have seen Ferrania reels that are totally red. All colors are in shades from pink to red. Many reels. And pretty much all Agfa I have seen (that is old) has bad colors, some have realllly bad colors. So film don´t last forever.

I agree with that.
I have some R8 red Agfa reels myself.

The anamorphic R8 1958 Kodachrome I'm working on right now is still very good, but..... Some black parts are not pure black any more but a little blue..

On my site you see some 1967 Agfa stills. Color is good, but it fades out.

On the long run, ALL film will degrade..
Let's hope the digitised version will be preserved.. forever?

For now, by copie it to another medium over and over again.
But I'm sure they find something more reliable, soon.
A chip, maybe?

Fred.