Ikonoskop DS8 Research

Post by **Evan Kubota** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:53 am

And "our" point (I assume) is that even $2500 would be ridiculous for a format that is hanging on by the skin of its teeth solely by virtue of being one of the cheapest possible ways to shoot real motion picture film.

No one is going to be "reinventing" anything in this gauge considering that a new camera hasn't been made in 20 years and one of the largest attractions is a surfeit of used, cheap gear.

'Small gauge' is certainly a viable option for serious production, but at the same time there are inherent tradeoffs that (rightfully, to be honest) prevent people from spending thousands on new-made equipment to use it. If you had the option of a $2500 DS8 camera when you can make fantastic images with an old Arri S for $1000 or less, I think the choice is completely obvious.

I have nothing inherently against the idea of a new-production, high quality small gauge camera but it's absolutely unrealistic to expect one at any price, for the simple reason that production and r&d costs would dictate a price point so high that the market couldn't support it.

It's sort of like talking to a brick wall in these threads, which are inevitably filled with fantasy, not reality.

To answer your question, no, a $3499 DS8 camera would not be my wet dream for the simple reason that I would never spend that much on a small gauge camera. I could buy two Eclairs for that price if I looked...[/quote]

Post by **fritzcarraldo** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:34 am

reflex wrote:
Patrick wrote:Nigel, I did like your idea of a dual guage camera that can be changed from DS8 to S16.
Yes, I also like the sound of Nige's idea. I suspect I'd spend most of my time shooting in 16, but it'd be nice to have the ability to shoot DS8 on a whim. Especially if it was Super Duper Double Super 8.

wouldn't be better to say Duper double super8 or double super duper8?

there's too many supers there!!! 8O :lol:

Post by **Juergen** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:12 am

Ikonoskop will make a special offer for the DS-8 version in the next issue of smallformat (5/2006). Will be published in 3 weeks.

Post by **jaxshooter** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:13 pm

audadvnc wrote:
T-Scan wrote: I would be willing to invest in a new DS8 Ikonoskop IF:
A. It was about $1500 cheaper
B. I could shoot most stocks available in 16mm
C. I had variable shutter, intervalometer, and at least 64fps
D. It had reflex viewing,
E. It could shoot 9.5mm,
F. It would wash my car,
G. It could fly....

Add cook meals,clean house and give BJ's and many of us would never leave the house if we had one.

Seriously though,I could think of alot nicer camera models to convert to DS 8 than this one.I've never been impressed with this one.

Post by **mattias** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:13 pm

jaxshooter wrote:I could think of alot nicer camera models to convert to DS 8 than this one.I've never been impressed with this one.

it wouldn't be a conversion. it would be a brand new camera. i think people are constantly unfair against ikonoskop when they compare their camera to a bolex or acl. i'm uncertain how much a new bolex is, if they're still around, i think they were at least not so long ago, but surely it's not cheap? and the acl is now the aaton, which costs several times as much.

/matt

Post by **Nigel** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:43 pm

Mattias...

You should know that and ACL is an Eclair and Aaton is Aaton ;)

All shit pitching aside.

DS8 is great on paper and S8 will always have a feel that you just can't really get on anything else. However, I sure as hell wouldn't line up to buy a new DS8 camera.

Why would I when I can get a Beaulieu or Canon off eBay for a fraction of the cost??

If Ikonoskop offered a 200 dollar conversion that I could do on a bench with a screwdriver then it seems like something at least taking a look at. Assuming that I bought an A-Cam. I think that Ikonoskop would be better served by offering a reflex or a mount other than C.

Good Luck

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:38 pm

T-Scan wrote:Errr, DS8 is nearly half the cost of super 8 for stock, and 4 times cheaper than 16mm. A 100ft spool of DS8 is 10 minutes of footage, 16mm is 2.5. The price is about $35 for both... and you'll only get 2 carts of S8 for $30. If DS8 were a full blown format with good stocks, film would be a good choice over digital without the high cost of S16.

....This is a very interesting breakdown indeed. Can a place like FSFT transfer DS8?

Steve

Post by **Nigel** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:43 pm

Anyplace that can Xfer S8 can Xfer DS8 since when it is in its final phase it is S8...

Good Luck

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:54 pm

Nigel wrote:Anyplace that can Xfer S8 can Xfer DS8 since when it is in its final phase it is S8...

Good Luck

How is DS8 prepped for telecine?.... I don't understand. :?

Steve

Post by **Nigel** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:58 pm

It is run through the camera as 16mm (100 feet) with S8 perfs.

Then when you are done shooting one side you flip it and expose the other side.

When you process it is run as though it is 16mm. After processing it is slit and spliced together to give you 200 feet of single strand S8.

Ya, dig??

Good Luck

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:13 pm

Nigel wrote:It is run through the camera as 16mm (100 feet) with S8 perfs.

Then when you are done shooting one side you flip it and expose the other side.

When you process it is run as though it is 16mm. After processing it is slit and spliced together to give you 200 feet of single strand S8.

Ya, dig??

Good Luck

Okay, I can dig that. I didn't realize there was a slice involved. This makes prepping for telecine a bit more complex. Who offers a DS8 prepping service? Alpha? How much does that cost?

Steve

Post by **T-Scan** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:45 pm

Okay, I can dig that. I didn't realize there was a slice involved. This makes prepping for telecine a bit more complex. Who offers a DS8 prepping service? Alpha? How much does that cost?

That's where I sent mine. Processing cost is the same as a 100ft roll of 16mm, since that's what it is. I don't recall the slitting charge, so it must not be that much. When it comes to stock and processing costs, you are getting exactly 4 times the running time with DS8, for the same buck as 16mm.

Post by **jaxshooter** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:46 pm

i think people are constantly unfair against ikonoskop when they compare their camera to a bolex or acl. i'm uncertain how much a new bolex is, if they're still around, i think they were at least not so long ago, but surely it's not cheap? and the acl is now the aaton, which costs several times as much.

/matt

Well to each his own, but I personally think it was a big mistake not to at least make the camera reflex(can it be fitted with an old Angeniux with a dogleg viewfinder?).I'm not sure how much a new Bolex would be,but you could pick up a Rex V on ebay is good shape with 3 lenses for less than 500 bucks (I sold mine for 350) a conversion to super 16 or even DS8 couldn't be more than a grand,so for 1500 bucks,you could be set up well.

I've seen Eclair ACL's and even Aaton LTR's sold for less than 2G,here again conversion is probably between 800 to 1500,so you be set up with a crystal sync super 16 camera for less than this Ikonoscope runs new.And have a better camera imho.

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:26 pm

T-Scan wrote:
Okay, I can dig that. I didn't realize there was a slice involved. This makes prepping for telecine a bit more complex. Who offers a DS8 prepping service? Alpha? How much does that cost?
That's where I sent mine. Processing cost is the same as a 100ft roll of 16mm, since that's what it is. I don't recall the slitting charge, so it must not be that much. When it comes to stock and processing costs, you are getting exactly 4 times the running time with DS8, for the same buck as 16mm.

Very interesting. Is your Scoopic DS8 crystal? I assume it takes c-mnt lenses... I have an 8mm project in mind that will require at least 3hrs of footage. This might be the way to do it, but it will be a dialogue heavy production so having sync will be key.

Steve

Post by **T-Scan** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:45 pm

It's not crystal sync, not that quiet, fixed 1.4 lens, and the only DS8 stocks you can get right now is 100D from John Schwind, or Fomapan from a few places.