MAX 8 <-> super-duper 8 ?

[wummi]

Hi,

here i start my first posting, hello to all you 8mm professionals!
i hope its allowed to ask a lot of newcomer questions :oops: ?

can somebody explain to me whats exactly the so called
"MAX 8 format for widescreen" from pro8mm is and also whats the difference between "MAX 8" and "super-duper 8" ?!

thanks for any hint,
wummi

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

As far as I know there is no difference between the two "wide super8 alternatives" (other than the difference that one is a DIY thingy and the other is a "pay a high price and get a serviced good camera all set up" thingy ;) ).

[filmamigo]

The image recorded on the film is the same, so by definition, Super Duper 8 and Max 8 are identical formats.

Optimally, a camera converted to Super Duper 8/Max 8 would have the optics recentered and the viewfinder corrected. Apparently, the Max 8-branded cameras have this done.

However, you could do that work to any camera converted to this format.

[wummi]

aha, interesting.
Is this format something like a standart (size of the gate, etc)? an is it inventet by pro8mm beacuse they sell Max 8 cameras?

Whats with the rest of the chaine, i mean projecting the film or telecine (special gate)? how can i use the wider s8 image on the film?
how much resolution or image size is it on the film on one single frame?
i have an old beaulieu camera, can i modify it by myself?

ups - manny questions 8O !
thank you very much for your help!
wummi

[filmamigo]

Is this format something like a standart (size of the gate, etc)? an is it inventet by pro8mm beacuse they sell Max 8 cameras?

Whats with the rest of the chaine, i mean projecting the film or telecine (special gate)? how can i use the wider s8 image on the film?
how much resolution or image size is it on the film on one single frame?
i have an old beaulieu camera, can i modify it by myself?

It's not an SMPTE standard or anything.

pro8mm are definitely not the inventor. Most folks assign that prestige to our own Mitch Perkins. He's really the best source for all info about Super Duper.

To use the extra image, your projector gate or telecine gate must also be enlarged. The extra image size does tighten up the grain nicely. Super Duper 8 shot on Vision 200 is very lovely.

You can do all of this yourself -- many people here have done that. Mitch also offers a Super Duper 8 conversion service. You'd have to ask him for details, but here's the website for his Telecine/Post facility: http://www.photoplays.ca/

[wummi]

Thanks David!

Last question:
so, super-duper 8 or MAX 8 describes only that it is a picture format on the medium super8 film but larger (wider) as the normal s8 used framing.
If this is thrue, every modified camera is a bit different to each other?

wummi

[reflex]

If this is thrue, every modified camera is a bit different to each other?wummi

All modified cameras will capture approximately the same image area (the limit is the edge of the film, of course). BUT... each camera lens will cast a different image. Some lenses will cover the full Super Duper 8 frame, while others will vignette at wide-angle settings.

[wummi]

BUT... each camera lens will cast a different image. Some lenses will cover the full Super-Duper 8 frame, while others will vignette at wide-angle settings.

thats the reason why pro8mm centers the lens which results in a better quality compared to DIY trys at home by only largen the gate?
i try to realise how to modify my beaulieu at home, to open the gate with some specials tools is something i can do but recenter the lens/mount??

sounds all a bit like super16mm vs. 16mm to me: wider gate an different centrum of lensmount - nice idea to convert this to s8mm... nice idea Mr. Perkins why i have never such ideas... :lol:

wummi

[Rick Palidwor]

As for the origin of this idea, Mitch certainly played a big part in this neck of the woods (and my experience with it) but many people were experimenting with the idea simultaneously (as is the case with most good inventions.). What's interesting is that I found an article from many years ago with Phil from Pro8 musing over the possibility - and he was going to call it super-duper 8. Mitch and others ended up beating him to the bunch, but he eventually did come through with Max 8.

Martin Baumgarten, a wealth of information on film formats, informed me once that some German engineers had conceived the same idea many years ago and they were going to call it Super 8"B" (B for Breitwand (spelling?), which I understand means "wide" in German. Any German speakers out there want to correct my spelling on this?

Rick

[sciolist]

Remarks withdrawn.

[andredigital]

Hello,

Muster Film & Television Inc in Switzerland have also advocated a new Super 8mm format which they call Super 8-B.

Three years ago, there was an article on super8site.com about Mr. Muster and his new format called DS 16:9:
http://www.super8site.com/fanzine/aktue ... ster.shtml



c by super8site.com


André

[Will2]

Do the transfer houses like Flying Spot in Seattle or Cinepost in Atlanta have gates for their telecine that will allow this wider S8 format? Anyone besides Pro8mm please?

[Mitch Perkins]

Just a note to say I have recently re-enthused myself on the whole SD8 thing. This comes from experimenting with capturing footage in 16:9, and then rescaling the image *without* retaining ratio.
That is, the 16:9 image is squished vertically on capture, then the *height only* is scaled down exactly 75%.

Alternately you could capture in 4:3 and letterbox, [different from scaling the image], with the same amount of render time. This approach also allows for more control wrt how much of the top and bottom one crops. But the 16:9 capture seems to give a nice squared-off image to start with - not sure why. I've never been one for the "math" approach, but this new method has re-awakened my own interest in the DIY widescreen thing.

Finally, I have noticed that Beaulieus seem to have some bit of metal in the way of the widened area, defeating the home version mod, though this has *still* not been confirmed to me with actual footage. Pro8 has I suppose dealt with this issue - me, I stick to using any other brand, because all of them take the mod well.
One wants a camera with the largest possible front element diameter to minimise vignetting, which can appear in both extreme telephoto, and/or with the addition of a wide-angle attachment.

BTW, I first heard of the idea from Greg Miller, formerly of Exclusive, now of Filmrescue Int'l.

Mitch

[Joerg]

I just recently looked at the promo DVD of Pro8mm and especially spent attention to the Max8 transfers. Each transfer of this wider format appears to have a density shift on both sides of the screen. It is more notable on one side than on the other, but it’s definitely present on both. This is not a lens vignette, but instead appears to be caused by either the camera gate or the telecine gate.

Joerg Schodl, Cinematographer, Los Angeles

[Patrick]

"BUT... each camera lens will cast a different image. Some lenses will cover the full Super-Duper 8 frame, while others will vignette at wide-angle settings."


"thats the reason why pro8mm centers the lens which results in a better quality compared to DIY trys at home by only largen the gate?"

Regardless if the lens is recentered or not, the image circle that the lens projects on the film must be large enough to cover the extended gate area. Some lenses project larger image circles than others. The distance that a lens focusses on also affects the size of the image circle.