Nigel wrote:However, when it is all said and done you are much better off buying the A-Cam in S16.
This statement might be true for the professional user. But an amateur probably still wants to use his/her Super8-projector, Super8-editor, ... instead of switching to 16mm-equipment. Not to mention that storing 16mm-films will take more space per minute than the same film in Super8. Film-prices per minute are cheaper in DS8 than in 16mm, too. ... .
The "only" problem is that the price will be too high for amateurs (especially if you want that camera modified to reflex viewing and video-assist).
jpolzfuss wrote:But an amateur probably still wants to use his/her Super8-projector, Super8-editor, ... instead of switching to 16mm-equipment. Not to mention that storing 16mm-films will take more space per minute than the same film in Super8. Film-prices per minute are cheaper in DS8 than in 16mm, too. ...
Only professionals would buy a DS8 version of the A-Cam for shooting "Super 8." It would have to be modified to capture widescreen "Super Duper" images to make it 16:9 friendly.
Even then, there just isn't a good enough selection of DS8 perforated film to justify the purchase of a 5000 euro camera.
Evan Kubota wrote:I never said there was a market for a new S8 camera at that price, either. If you think you can somehow create demand for such an expensive product, you are deluding yourself.
You can't create demand at that price... you would have to create demand by cutting that price in half... the only way is by marketing it as a new format. whether they do that or not is up to them and Kodak, but it's the only way... it has to be more than the nitche S8 is now.
Only professionals would buy a DS8 version of the A-Cam for shooting "Super 8." It would have to be modified to capture widescreen "Super Duper" images to make it 16:9 friendly.
Even then, there just isn't a good enough selection of DS8 perforated film to justify the purchase of a 5000 euro camera.
Exactly, no is going to spend that kind of money to shoot 2 nitche made reversal films that are now available (foma, 100D) not even professionals. It would have to be supported by Kodak just like the A-minima, with the good films available and some kind of campaign. It would actually be wise for Kodak to dump super 8 and market a new DS8 format to film schools, small budget film makers ect...
T-Scan wrote:It would actually be wise for Kodak to dump super 8 and market a new DS8 format to film schools, small budget film makers ect...
Why? There are probably hundreds of thousands of functional S8 cameras lying around in basements and attics throughout the world. It would be silly to ignore those for the sake of a few hundred very expensive DS8 units.
I'd bet that if Ikonoskop were to market a new DS8mm camera, that Kodak negative film stocks would become available for it. Then a new water mark for the venerable S8mm gauge would become a reality. With the widened gate for HD transfer, Vision film stocks, and the quality film capture characteristics of the DS8mm format, wow. To me a more realistic road for this to happen would be for 8mm shooters (all 8mm formats) to take up and use the DS8 cameras available now, for more conversions of Bolex H cameras to DS8, and then the demand would be there for more film stocks. Again, as it is, DS8 offers some great reversal film stocks. Next time a cartridge jams, or the film breathes in the gate on an important shot, or the camera dies a sudden death just when you need it.... think of DS8mm. You may not know what you are missing.
My vote is still for a K-3 conversion to DS8. It would be much cheaper and have a mirror reflex viewfinder. I think it could easily be done for less then $2000 including the K-3. Anyone want to help desgin it? I have contact with several great machine shops that could do the parts...
Regards,
Paul Cotto
Don't worry about equipment so much and make your movie!
Why all the DS8 mania? Yes, it can be more stable than S8. Yes, the frame size is far smaller than 16mm with all the attendant loading requirements (which are not a problem, but still more effort than slamming a cart into the compartment).
I'd rather either use S8 and accept its flaws or go with 16mm...
Even if Ikonoskop makes a DS8, it won't have reflex viewing. Why not push for a reflex addition before the DS8 mod?
Anyway, how many people are really gonna shell out $6250 for a camera? Will the ikonoskop DS8 be appreciably better than existing DS8 cameras? If Ikonoskop adds a reflex viewer, the a-cam is a fully functional super 16 camera for around the price of an HVX/Z1 (would like different lens mount, but i guess you can use rods and c to pl or c to b mount adapter). Not sure any other super 16 camera fills that niche. Isn't size and low profile one of the major draws of super 8? Imagine that in super 16.
If Ikonoskop is really serious, why don't they take deposits on the mods? If they need 25 DS8 sales to go forward, why not take $1000 deposits to guage interest. If the necessary committment isn't met, they could refund the money.
Will the ikonoskop DS8 be appreciably better than existing DS8 cameras? If
It would have to be. meaning a 16:9 frame, crystal sync, quiet motor. The idea should be based on bringing the format to a new level where it can be used in a variety of productions. Because theoretically, you could shoot a pretty decent looking film for very little money with this scenario:
Vision2 50D, 100T & or 200T, 16:9 frame with solid registration, crystal sync with quiet motor, 5 minutes of shooting per side, telecine with hard drive dump. But the current price theory is way too high, and there are very little stocks available. They should at least build a prototype, shoot a demo with some 50D and 100T... and try to build the excitement from there. maybe get enough buzz going to sell alot more and reduce the price.
T-Scan wrote:It would actually be wise for Kodak to dump super 8 and market a new DS8 format to film schools, small budget film makers ect...
Why? There are probably hundreds of thousands of functional S8 cameras lying around in basements and attics throughout the world. It would be silly to ignore those for the sake of a few hundred very expensive DS8 units.
... and all those cameras are at least 25 years old, have missing eyecups, broken plastic-pieces, missing manuals, dirty lenses, ... and in most cases can't be serviced anymore due to the lack of spare parts.
Add that to using c-mount-lenses, using modern sync-sound-devices that even are IN PRODUCTION, having a 16:9-image, having the possibility to add video-assist, ... .
So: Are you still asking "why"?
Patrick wrote:All super 8 cameras have missing eyecups, broken plastic-pieces, missing manuals, dirty lenses?
Yes, all. I haven't seen any super8-camera without any damage or a missing part/manual for years.
Even the "never sold, never used, still shrink wrapped in the original box"-cameras that show up on eBay from time to time do have problems with some plastic or rubber pieces since the used material simply crumbled to dust over the time.
It is a fact of life, that S-8mm cameras are not as rugged as any roll film movie camera. Even 50+ year old R-8mm cameras still rock today, while S8mm cameras are reaching the end of their lives after 25 years. That is not to say that I don't like S-8mm cameras. I do, I just wish they wouldn't keep failing on me. I have lost six (6!) cameras over the past year due to failures that make them little more than paper weights. That represents over half of the S-8mm cameras I owned. The only S-8mm camera I can honestly put into the category of "hammer" is the Sankyo CME1100. I used one for over 15 years until I dropped it a few years ago. I have since purchased two replacements and each one works flawlessly. I don't know why they are so reliable, but that is my experience. The only problem with them is the foam turning to goo around the door.
With a DS8mm Bolex camera, you can buy a Tobin sync motor for it and shoot crystal sync double system sound with it. You can also shoot various frame rates, and all with the benefits of cheaper per foot film costs while enjoying the best S-8mm has to offer in the way of registration, focus and overall image quality. The Canon DS8 camera can also be modified for crystal sync by the Film Group as I understand. The point is, while maybe not for everyone, DS8mm is a viable system. Even in S-8mm's golden days, a great many serious users were shooting DS-8mm. Why not today?
