Poll- 100D or 64T?

[filmamigo]

I have fallen in love with both the VISION2 200 and 500. I have no doubt that the 50D would be an incredible film -- THE film of choice for going to telecine. 8)

I know Kodak is interested in seeding the market of film shooters, and that means film schools, co-ops, etc. Events like Flicker's Attack of the 50 Foot Reels or Rick Palidwor's Super 8 Circus rely on compatible, projection ready film. For these markets, 100D reversal is perfect.

Seems like Kodak would have TWO winners. Each of these films would make their primary market happy -- low-budget pros, or film schools/art community.

[John_Pytlak]

John,
If Ekta 100D 7285 will be released in Super 8, this would imply the discontinuance of Ekta 64T 7280 :?:

That's part of any business case evaluation. Having two color reversal films on the market would add to inventory cost. So would having two films add to revenue (grow the market rather than "cannibalize" each other), and more importantly, add to earnings?

I know many would like the creative choice of having two color reversal films, but if it boils down to an either/or situation, what is the preference? E64T 7280 or E100D 7285?

[mattias]

Would 50D work on 40/160 cameras? I suppose it would as long as the internal 85 filter was disengaged.

Sure! 1/3 f-stop of overexposure is irrelevant, specially for negative films.

except most of these cameras don't read 40d, only 40t, so it would be read as 25d, which means one stop. unless kodak notch it as 40t and require manual disengaging of the filter, but i think that would be a bad idea. one stop is still fair enough and might decrease the grain even, and it would be "correct".

/matt

[T-Scan]

If Ekta 100D 7285 will be released in Super 8, this would imply the discontinuance of Ekta 64T 7280

I've been happy with the 64T, but wouldn't be disappointed if it was swapped with the 100D. If 64T was discontinued in S8, it may be an awsome consideration for 16mm.

50D would put the S8 format over the top. I can see it holding up nice on the big screen for digitally projected festivals.

[filmamigo]

I've been happy with the 64T, but wouldn't be disappointed if it was swapped with the 100D.

It would be the end of indoor shooting. 25ASA under tungsten light is not feasible.

[T-Scan]

I've been happy with the 64T, but wouldn't be disappointed if it was swapped with the 100D.

It would be the end of indoor shooting. 25ASA under tungsten light is not feasible.

I'd miss doing night shutterless time exposures for projection the most. If I was working under tungston for normal shooting, I'd use the 17 or 18.

[DrkAngl]

John,

50D Neg would be ideal for super 8 users wanting to shoot documentary style. It essentially completes a family of super 8 neg films (50D, 200T and 500T) allowing for flexible shooting in any situation. This opens the door for professionals (shooting for super 8 aesthetic) and students that want to experiment with film at low cost.

A complete family of films makes the case for shooters switching over from other competeing companies that currently provide more variety by slitting film down. With better quality film product on the market, more people will be drawn to film and stay. Quality, consistency and reliability are key to growing your market.

There are other key issues that go along with introducing a proper family of super 8 films. But, making sure a solid variety of low cost film is out there for beginners (and professionals) to try is the first big hurtle to overcome.

My only final thought is to relay is that Kodak is on the right track with the films you are currently considering. Low grain stocks are most important of all to the super 8 format and I look forward to the 7201 in particular.

[Mogzy]

If it's a question of quantities, Kodak need only ask the following questions:

1. "What will most shooters of a reversal Super 8 film use it for?"

The answer to this is that they are more likely to be the indie-film-makers and enthusiasts who want to use it for projection.

These are the people most likely to be "starting out" with film and may have an old camera picked up from ebay or a second-hand shop which may be a 40T/160T only model.

If they use 64T with it they may be dis-satisfied with over-exposed blueish results and shy away from film as being too expensive and not good enough quality-wise.

If they use 100D they will get correctly exposed and correctly balanced results. A 100D notched cart will be "idiot-proof" from a filtration point of view and will work in every camera. The fine grain and depth of colour, correctly exposed, is more likely to make them see film as a viable format for their work. They will buy 100D and use it again. They will then investigate and progress to the negative stocks, 16mm and beyond, having become familiar with Kodak motion picture products early in their careers they will come to trust Kodak's products over any other.

The vast majority of these beginners and enthusiasts will be shooting outdoors. Those shooting indoors are more likely to be pro's who will be shooting the negative stocks with higher speeds better suited to tungsten use anyway.

2. "What did people really want as a replacement reversal stock to K40?"

Answer:

- Something as easy to use as K40
- Something as universally compatible with all cameras as K40
- Something which looks as much like K40 (in terms of grain, saturation etc) as possible.

This is 100D, not 64T. There was a misconception that "lower speed" meant "lower grain". This is not the case as daylight films have finer grain than tungsten films.

100D is the obvious choice. Of the high-street camera stores which aren't film specialists but stock one type of Super 8 film, it's always the colour reversal film.

With 100D, someone with any camera can easily get a film which will work. It will encourage them to investigate film further.

Using 64T in a camera which will incorrectly expose and filter it may put novice film-makers off film. 100D will dazzle them and have them hooked on Kodak motion picture film products for life.

I was an extensive user of K40 as well as being a regular user of the old VNF and still regularly use Plus X and Tri X. I have used 200T and 500T a few times for specific jobs.

I have done extensive tests with Kodak EKTACHROME 64T in cameras which can expose it correctly, and 40T/160T only cameras. I have also tested a repackaged version of Kodak EKTACHROME 100D (sold as Wittnerchrome 100D) in the same cameras.

My results were:

- 64T is grainier than either K40 or 100D and has a blue tinge when filtered using the in built camera filter (as most novices and amateurs will).

- 64T when exposed incorrectly at 40T/25D is highly disappointing and washed out looking, unlikely to encourage further film use.

- 100D is idiot-proof from a filtration point of view. It is ideal for novices and amateurs- the pro film-makers of the future.

- 100D gives correctly exposed images in all cameras. The grain appears finer even than K40 and the colour saturation is similar to K40. Shot outdoors the colour balance is always perfect as it is a daylight balanced film.

Naturally 64T has its advantages, but overall 100D is a clear winner, and I think most Super 8 users would agree that it should be the only colour reversal film if we are to be offered one choice only. I'm sure the companies offering 100D presently would be able to repackage 64T for those who wanted it, but for a "semi-mainstream" widely used reversal film, it has to be 100D.

Finally, and in a nutshell, a business case which is purely economic:

1. "Which will sell more?"

I would be willing to bet everything that it would be 100D. No question.

2. "Which will create a good first impression of Kodak products?"
100D for the reasons stated above.

3. "Which will be more likely to get people to try and buy other Kodak Motion picture products?"
100D for the same reasons.

[The Swede]

Please give us E100D 7285

Cheers

Hans

[T-Scan]

There are other key issues that go along with introducing a proper family of super 8 films. But, making sure a solid variety of low cost film is out there for beginners (and professionals) to try is the first big hurtle to overcome.

Aside from cost... it really opens up the possibilities for screen play features in S8. theoretically, with a crystal sync, quiet or blimped cam... I could shoot a pretty amazing looking short feature with the 01, 17 & 18. Shadow to hard drive and authored to DVD. Imagine if Rick P. shot "Sleep Always" using those films and post route. I mean it looked great the way he did it, but imagine if? I'm ready to hunt down a short screen play or write one of my own if 50D came out. And it wouldn't be bad for the artsy fartsy stuff and music pieces I do now either.

[gianni1]

100D Reversal for home movie makers, easy DIY and cheap amateur telecine. How about faster 160T or 320T E6 reversal stocks too please?

50D Color Negative is a great addition to the - Vision 2 palette for the Pros, Semi-pros and sophisticated shooters who use it for digital, intermediate and prints.

Gianni

[timdrage]

I voted for 100 in that it would be of course good to have a new stock, especially one that will work in my old junk cameras etcc...

but really it would seem prettty crazy for kodak to discontinue 64T so soon!? 8O

Fingers crossed for both! ^_^

[steve hyde]

...my first choice vote for a new Super 8 film stock is for 7201 (50D) It would be nice to have a daylight balanced stock.

second choice would be 100D

64T is currently my least favorite super 8 stock - although I am using it for a project at the moment.

7201 is the obvious choice for telecine workflows.

[Mogzy]

100D Reversal for home movie makers, easy DIY and cheap amateur telecine. How about faster 160T or 320T E6 reversal stocks too please?

That would be nice, but as Mr Pytlak said, being realistic and recognising that the chances are Kodak will do only one colour reversal film and it will be an existing emulsion, at least 100D is realistic at present.

Good news that they're considering 50D in neg though

really it would seem prettty crazy for kodak to discontinue 64T so soon!? 8O

Fingers crossed for both! ^_^

They discontinued VNF Ektachrome in Super 8 in a relatively short period of time (that didn't meter well in most cameras either )

Of course having both would be great, I think everyone here would probably agree with that, but we have to be realistic here and state which we would prefer if we could only have one.

[steve hyde]

Clearly Kodak did not choose 64T because they thought it would be an optimal replacement for K40. I think they elected to package 64T in Super 8 because the 64T market evaporated when digital photography took off a few years ago. 64T was a popular 35mm still film used primarily for "copy work", that is creating photographic reproductions of visual art works. It was also used a lot by architectural photographers for interiors. Most of this work is now being done on digital.

Since 64T was never really designed for motion picture use it seems like it would be the first to go - if one has to go....

Steve