Uher Pilot sound

[Sam James]

Right, go easy on me. I'm new to the forum and I've seen how this pack can turn on what it sees as an imposter. (Blimey, it turns on it's own fairly casually.)

Simple question:-

I currently record for sound using my DV camcorder. I have a Nizo Professional and I'd like to use it's sync/pulse, Pilot capabilities (just for the sake and fun of it). I know the camera's noisy and I know that the sound "quality" is unlikely to be up to that of my DV, but I would like to play. However, I can't yet justify to myself, the cost of shelling out for a Nagra 4.2, so do I spend £500 or so on an older Nagra III and hope that it's in a relatively decent nick or (given that sound is a new medium for me) will I get a better return from a good condition Uher Report, and if so, does the 6000 have the same potential for linking up to my camera?

I ask now, because there are a couple of beautiful looking machines on the eBay monster and, having just "enjoyed" Christmas, I don't want to throw any more money down the toilet.

Thanks

Sam

[clivetobin]

... do I spend £500 or so on an older Nagra III and hope that it's in a relatively decent nick or (given that sound is a new medium for me) will I get a better return from a good condition Uher Report, ...

A Nagra III is a good machine if it is still in good working order. Unlike the IV it had germanium transistors instead of silicon, so they sometimes get leaky and noisy with age. I have not been impresed with the Uher stuff, but it has been so long now that I don't remember why not. ;-)

I am not aware of any super-8 cameras that have a native pilot output. A pilot signal is a 1 volt RMS 50 or 60 Hz sine wave. The pulse output from a super-8 camera might be 24 or 25 switch closures per second, which is not the same thing. It is possible to build up a box with a PLL (phase locked loop) frequency multiplier and active filter, to make a pilot signal out of it.

[Sam James]

Hi Clivetobin,

Thanks for replying so quickly. "Germanium" sounds a Hollywood, but you clearly know a lot more than I.

I was under the impression that the Nizo Pro does have a Pilot tone emitting generator that can be linked up to particular reel-to-reels, but I'm not certain which ones and I'm not sure how.

Can anyone help?

Sam

[Taqi]

Hi Clivetobin,

Thanks for replying so quickly. "Germanium" sounds a Hollywood, but you clearly know a lot more than I.

I was under the impression that the Nizo Pro does have a Pilot tone emitting generator that can be linked up to particular reel-to-reels, but I'm not certain which ones and I'm not sure how.

Can anyone help?

Sam

It does have a pilot generator but you might find it easier to use the pulse generator instead (less resolving issues?) - then you can hook it up with pedros sync stuff etc. Never tried it with a 6000 but the 4200 Report Monitor is easy enough to connect... just need to find a cable - super8camera-shop has them occasionally..

[Taqi]

Oh, and uhers are not really in nagra's league, but still great machines... very much cheaper...

[audadvnc]

My Nagra III was a lot less than £500, that sounds like a rather high price for such an old deck (introduced in 1962). You probably won't want to carry it around slung over your shoulder like they did in the old days; Nagra decks weigh a lot for their size, especially with the 12 D cell batteries required to run one. Unlike the later Nagra 4.2 it has no phantom power for microphones (but you can provide phantom with add-on electronics). The sync beep sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard. But if the electronics are OK (see Clive Tobin's post; I've had no problems with electronics in mine) it makes fine (monaural) recordings. The old rubber belts are undoubtably shot by now; you will probably need to replace them with new polyurethane belts that will last forever. Given a choice between a Nagra III and an equivalently priced Nagra 4.2 I'd take the latter in a heartbeat.

As far as sound quality vrs a DV camcorder, I'd say do a comparison. Nagra's no slouch; Hollywood used Nagra III audio in their major blockbuster movies of the 60's. And consumer camcorders don't spend a lot of money on audio circuitry. Analog tape has some hiss, but if you're recording in the field and paying attention to your meters that hiss is well below the ambient sound level; you'll never hear it on your playback. Monaural 7 1/2 ips audio sounds really good, and 15 ips even better. Likely the Nagra will sound better than DV in a practical A/B test.

Here's a hint for pulse synchronization using a consumer DV camcorder: record the sync pulse on one audio channel, mono audio on the other.

[jaxshooter]

I used the Uher 1000 Pilot and the 4000 Report,both synced to a Beaulieu R 16,an Arri S and a Bolex EBM.For dialogue I found these machines to be more than acceptible.For live music and such,though,I would have to go with a Nagra.The Nagra III is a great old workhorse and if you're working on location in cold weather with heavy gloves,those big knobs come in handy.

[clivetobin]

I forgot to mention, if you are buying a Nagra make sure it really has the pilot input jack and the pilot head.

There have been some up on Ebay for example that have lacked these items and thus are not suitable for lip-sync sound filming.

[paulcotto]

I have a pilotone generator for the Beaulieu 4008ZMII and the Super-8 Sound fullcoat recorder. I also have the Super-8 sound 1 pulse per frame to 60 hz pilotone generator which can be used with any camera that you can rig with a 1 pulse per frame output. They still make those so you could use any recorder, even a digital one. >>>

http://users.aol.com/fmgp/sync11.htm


Regards,
Paul Cotto

[Taqi]

A Hi MD minidisc recorder is worth thinking about.. I'm sure I saw someone selling a barney for the nizo 800 series which had a built-in pouch for your md.

The only problem is sony - I know they have supposedly fixed the software so you can now upload stuff recorded via the line in, but they have pissed me off so much with their frickin' copy protection paranoia that I have sworn never to buy (knowingly) a sony product ever again. I had 300 quid which I wanted to spend on one of their hi-mds when they first came out but sony were still deliberately crippling the md players then... so bought a uher instead & had plenty of money left to spend on tape & film...

And sonic stage must surely be on the short list for the worst software of all time...

Sorry, got off topic there - go with the tape!

[Pedro]

For nowadays use, I recommend the this kind of setup:

Audio recording: with M-Audio Microtrack 2496 (very high quality wav or mp3 files, balanced mike inputs, cigarette box sized!)

Interface to camera: R1008-MD

Resolving: Projector Elmo GS1200MO or Bauer T610/525/510/502 or Braun Visacustic
Synchronizer for projector: P1008GS(-Q, -DDS)=Elmo only
or P1008(-Q, -DDS).

Allows also sync transfer to computer for sound track editing and re-recording to sound stripe.

Pedro

[jaxshooter]

Resolving: Projector Elmo GS1200MO or Bauer T610/525/510/502 or Braun Visacustic
Synchronizer for projector: P1008GS(-Q, -DDS)=Elmo only
or P1008(-Q, -DDS).

Allows also sync transfer to computer for sound track editing and re-recording to sound stripe.

Pedro

Pedro,will the older Elmo ST 1200 work?I seem to recall it had a similar pulse sync output?

[Arislan]

The only problem is sony - I know they have supposedly fixed the software so you can now upload stuff recorded via the line in, but they have pissed me off so much with their frickin' copy protection paranoia that I have sworn never to buy (knowingly) a sony product ever again. !

You too?? That's what I did, I'll never buy a Sony product again.

[Pedro]

Elmo ST1200 won´t work, becaue it has an induction motor that cannot easyly be regulated in both directions (slower and FASTER). The pulse output only is not enough.

For the ST180 however, I see some chances to make it compatible for regulation, but only when using the universal synchronizer models P1008... (without "GS"). But I actually have no ready interface for ST180.

Basicly, any projector with an internal or external pitch potentiometer can be made compatible more or less easyly.

[audadvnc]

The only problem is sony ... they have pissed me off so much with their frickin' copy protection paranoia that I have sworn never to buy (knowingly) a sony product ever again. !

You too?? That's what I did, I'll never buy a Sony product again.

Other audio manufacturers also incorporate copy protection in their consumer level digital recording devices. Are you trying to record new material, or merely rip off existing material? If the former, you need to look at production gear; it's more expensive but gives you control over setting/removing those copy bits.

If the latter, please stop that, it's rude and illegal.