Wanted knowledge about 16mm cameras.

[oskar]

The newbie makes he´s first appearance!

Hello - my name is oskar and I´m from Finland - after playing around with Super8 for a while I´m getting really interested in the world of 16mm.

I have a few questions about 16mm cameras.


Is the Krasnogorsk-3 allways spring-driven? Or is there a model of the K-3 that works with a electrical-motor? How much can you film before you have to rewind the spring? Somebody told me that the Canon Scoopic is really loud - so loud that it´s really hard to film with it and get a ok sound...Is the K3 as loud?

Is there any models of the Canon Scoopic that are electrical-driven? Is the Canon Scoopic, really too loud?

Is there in general some not-blimped-cameras that are known to be more silent than the other ones? Is it only the "pro" models like ARRIFLEX that uses film-magazines? If the camera hasn´t a magazine how do you change the stock when your on-the-field? Do you have a black-loading-bag with you wherever you go?

These questions is really beginner-questions, I know - but you have to start somewhere and if you don´t ask you will never learn...

[Nigel]

I don't know much about the K3.

The Canon is a cool camera but I never liked it because you can't change lenses. The Scoopic is electric.

Yes, they are both very loud.

What do you want to do with the camera??

Good Luck

[sooper8fan]

hi oskar,
as for the K3, check out this site: http://www.k3camera.com

also, a member of another forum recommended this book to me:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157087 ... e&n=283155

and it's got a LOT of great info for beginning and advanced 16mm users. I'm in the same boat as you (shooting super8 and want to start shooting 16mm) and I've learned a lot just from the first couple chapters.

[Joe Gioielli]

I think the K3 might make a good stater camera. Clive Tobin did make a motor for it, but I believe it was discontinued. The hand crank is a bit of a drag, but it really isn't as bad as you think it is going to be.

The best feature of the K3 is cost. They are just so cheap, it's hard to go wrong. It's very rugged and I have no problem loading it. It is loud, I consider it about as loud as a sewing machine. Forget recording wild sound, but you won't lose your hearing. And heavy. It has a goofy shoulderstock that sort of helps. The viewdinder will look yellow as well. It's just the viewfind, not the lens.

It's hard to judge lens quality, but I would say that it is of "average" quality. Not bad, not great. Usable,

I love my k3. Even though one day I hope to have something better, I'll always keep it. If I find myself filimg someplace where damage of thieft is an issue, having a cheap, solid camera makes sense.

I think you will be stunned by the increase in quality you will see by going 16mm.

Joe

[jaxshooter]

I think one of the best starter cameras is the Bolex Rex V or Rex SBM.It will grow with you.You can start out using it spring would with 100 foot loads and a three primes,the cost is around 300 to 500 USD.As you get more adavanced,you can add xtal sync motors,400 foot mags and I have used a soft,universal barney (one that I also used on an Arri M and Arri S)that did an OK job of quieting the camera for sync shoots,that is as long as you're not in a studio,outdoors the barney was OK.In a studio,you need a hard blimp.

[Evan Kubota]

I don't know if a Rex 5 is a good starter camera - fairly expensive, for one, since eBay is crazy lately. An original Scoopic can be had for under $250, and an M or MS for under $500. Yes, you can probably get better glass for the Bolex, but supposedly the reflex viewing is not that great.

I have a non-reflex Bolex body that I bought for $65... works great, and obviously takes any C mount lens that's not massive in the back.

I fail to see the point of adding a crystal sync motor to a loud Bolex that's best for MOS work...

[jaxshooter]

I fail to see the point of adding a crystal sync motor to a loud Bolex that's best for MOS work...

Agreed,it is noisy.In all fairness though,I have shot some good lip sync takes with a Bolex SBM blimped with a soft barney or a heavy blanket or Turkish towell.I actually found it easier to silence a Bolex than a Beaulieu R-16 which has a high pitched whine as opposed to a Bolex's low grumble.

[camera8mm]

The scoopic models are only electric. some had provision for a additional magazine, some did not. the light meter on the scoopic is not ttl. some models varied on the shutter and running speeds.
the "pro" or rather expensive models of the arriflex, aaton and eclair have no internal chamber per say but use an attachable quick change magazine. the magazine is the film chamber. the magazine can be loaded in a changing bag if in the field. i dont think most people change loads on 100' cameras because it is risky mixing up and fogging film. but its possible in some cameras.
a good starter model couble be a beaulieu or even a koadk k 100, model e, bell howell 70 series or eumig.

[S8 Booster]

all scoopic models +:
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/came ... index.html

came across n update on the canon cam museum regarding their 16mm models. all 8 scoopic models are listed plus their last 16mm cam made in 1979 - the systema sound 16 with n arri lens mount and a dual sound system.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/came ... index.html

s8hÔÔt

[oskar]

Wow! I´m amazed of the amount of ansvers I got - just under one night!

Where should I start?

I´m looking for a camera for fieldwork - handheld. Documentary or just documenting the environment. I will use wildsound sometimes - but I´ll figure out how to blimp the camera - so that the sound of the camera doesn´t override the sound of the person talking...

How long can you film with the K-3 before you have to rewind the spring? The outside temperature has to have a affect on it? How much does it differ if your filming outside when it´s winter and cold as hell?

On what electrical source does the Canon Scoopic run on? Does it have it´s own batteries? Or can you use batteries like AA that are produced at this day? How does the Canon Scoopic M and MS-models differ?

I´m just for kicks been looking at this camera, Kinor-16 2 M, do you have any idea how much this costs? I have a feeling that it´s too expensive but it looks nice - and every boy has to have he´s dream...

Thanks again for the huge amount of ansvers - keep ´em coming...

[audadvnc]

Welcome Oskar. The best camera for you is the one you can get your hands on. Any functioning Bolex, K3, Filmo, Kodak, Scoopic, Keystone, Auricon, CP16, Eclair, Arri, Aaton, Mitchell or Happy Luckystar camera will move film through for you. All you have to do is decide what to shoot. Some cameras are better than others - don't worry about that until you know which end of the camera to point at the scene.

The big operational difference between Super 8 and 16mm is that Super 8 cameras are consumer-based "point and shoot" devices. They have automatic exposure so you don't need to worry about light levels. In contrast, almost all 16mm cameras are totally manual; you have to measure light levels and dial in the appropriate exposure on the lens. So get yourself a light meter.

The Bolex-K3-Scoopic-Filmo-Kodak-Keystone-ArriS cameras are all noisy, non-synchronous cameras. They'll sound like coffee grinders on your microphones; don't bother trying to record audio except for scratch tracks with one of these running. Starting with the Auricon and including Eclair, Aaton, CP16, and Arri BL/SR, you get quiet, synchronous cameras designed to be used on-set for filming dialog. They cost more than the Bolex & friends.

By the way, you don't need synchronous sound to make a movie. Every film made before 1929 (there were thousands) were image only, and many films today still create most sound elements in post production.

For beginning filmmakers, you can't beat a Bolex. It does about anything a camera can do, is small & affordable, and takes great pictures. It runs about 25 seconds on a wind. Filmos run 35 seconds, Kodak K100 runs 45 seconds. As a beginner, you really shouldn't be shooting takes longer than a wind, it's just a waste of film. One of the major disciplines of filmshooting is breaking the videographer's habit of run-on takes. Just keep in mind the image of dollars/kroners/euros rolling through your camera and it will help focus your attention.

[studiocarter]

Bolex camera jam in cold weather. I did that while out in only or almost slightly freezing weather after 15 min or half an hour it froze up. After a warm it was ok. I also read about it just a few days ago in the assigned reading for a film production class I'm in.

[audadvnc]

It froze in Pittsburgh - in this mild winter? I'd say there's something wrong with the camera; it probably need re-lubing.

Cameras that are intended for subzero antarctic/alpine shooting are sent into the shop to get their works relubed with graphite lubricants, or are run dry to avoid their lubes freezing up. I've shot unmodified Filmos and Bolexes in deep subzero Minnesota weather and they ran fine (but they made an awful racket).

[Evan Kubota]

The Scoopic has onboard battery packs. The M and MS take a type which holds AA NiCd cells, but the grey model takes two 5-cell stacks of 280mAh NiCd button cells.

Bolexes and K-3s generally run for 25-30 seconds per wind. The Filmo is a little longer - maybe 35 seconds.

For handheld, a Scoopic is pretty nice, but OTOH in the field handwinding is easier than batteries. Just make sure you keep it wound...

[ccortez]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the Beaulieu R-16, which seems like a good choice give your usage description. You can find them relatively cheap on ebay and Bjorn Andersson still services these cameras for reasonable prices.

I also use a non-reflex Bolex H-16 as a backup and when I need battery-less ops.