E64 Results

[tlatosmd]

I agree that S8 is moving towards professionalism, meaning the percentage of pros has risen compared to 20 years ago. That's why 64T was announced as a pro stock.

I agree that K40 was a convenience film and that it outsold all other Kodak S8 stocks.

I agree the negative stocks are more professional than the reversal stocks.

But why put out a stock that requires pro skills and gives inferior results to Kodak's best-selling S8 stock? If pros are supposed to be buying more S8 films, then why did they buy the one film that was considered most 'amateurish'?

Either you put out a pro stock requiring pro skills and giving pro results, or you put out an amateur stock requiring amateur skills (40 or 160ASA) and giving amateur skills. Both would sell better than 64T will.

Of course, another convenience film (40 or 160ASA) with professional results would sell best again.

[mathis]

... And it would "seem" that while the focus of Kodak may very well be towards professionals, it also "seems" to appear that the actual bread and butter sales wrt to Super 8 are actually amateurs.

All these ideas would be relevant if Kodak would make serious money with Super8. They don´t. They keep it alive to give the young filmmakers some film at hand with which they can work and which will keep them using film for their later productions which finally will give Kodak some profit.
At least that´s how I understand John. So the amateurs willing to buy Super8 film are totally irrelevant for their business decisions.

[mattias]

This is the most telling quote I have heard in a long time.

huh? you sound like it's some kind of news. it's been official since years ago.

/matt

[T-Scan]

But why put out a stock that requires pro skills and gives inferior results to Kodak's best-selling S8 stock? If pros are supposed to be buying more S8 films, then why did they buy the one film that was considered most 'amateurish'?

Since the negatives came out in S-8, that's what the pros are using. reversal is more of a film school product.

Now, for those that like to project, perhaps the concerns are different but from where I stand, the E64T is a clear winner.

It looks better projected in all departments too.. the slight increase in grain is less noticable, and not a concern when the images look so much better after all. I've shot 100's of K40 rolls, and feel like the 64T has given new life to S8. It comes through for me in all those situations where K40 looks muddy, desaturated, grainy, contrsty... and in those situations where K40 would shine, 64T does better.

[Film-0-Matic]

yes

[Film-0-Matic]

yes

[Lunar07]

All of the Super-8 films are now products in the Kodak Entertainment Imaging (PROFESSIONAL motion picture) catalog. Although "amateurs" may use them, the products are intended to support PROFESSIONAL filmmaking. In the case of E64T, the intent is to provide a reversal film having a different "look" than color negative film, and to provide filmaking students (who will hopefully become professional filmmakers) a color film and process convenient for basic filmmaking courses.

To clarify first: All my cameras auto-expose E64T correctly except for the Bauer 207XL. So my issue with the K40 Vs. E64T is not over a personal frustration regarding my camera, but a problem in how this thing is handled out of a sense of fairness.

John - it does not matter how you classify this. Every stock I have seen has PRO merits. And creating something that can cater to a percentage of the market (cameras that can auto-expose E64T) in order to replace something that caters to ALL the market does not make economic sense to me; just because someone chooses to classify a stock as Pro as though K40 is NOT pro. It seems as though Kodak is redefining the rules of the game here and falling victim to its own rigid rules. As though someone is saying: This thing is gonna be pro so we wanna make sure that at least 60% of the market is vanquished since they do not qualify with their cameras to be PRO. The ground upon which we are treading by which something is classified as pro or amatuer and what that ENTAILS are quite murky. It does NOT matter where you classify E64T. What matters is that MOST beginners are out of the game just because someone threw the PRO BOOK on them. This is the thing. As though someone is saying there is a rigid line between between what is amateur and pro and not all can cross that line, so they have to be left behind.
Many of those who are falling for the PRO Vs. AMATEUR line have apparently FORGOTTEN the first moment in time when they held an S8 camera withouth even knowing what an aperture is. I have not! It is those beginners or even advanced users with their 'amateur' cameras that we stand to lose. And it is these users who will grow to USE film. Sorry to say it, but I am seeing a trend (not you) by many toward a high brow approach based on a sense of being "PROS."
ALL - GO BACK IN TIME TO THE MOMENT YOU GOT YOUR FIRST S8 CAMERA. Do not let this PRO talk subvert what S8 is all about. Individual freedom and creativity!

Standard SMPTE 166 provides for notching cartridges for an EI-64 tungsten balance film. To save costs, some cameras do not recognize all film speeds allowed by the SMPTE standard.

This is all academic. The standard is out THERE in the cameras that exist today. Not in any book or any spec. This is what you cater for - what is OUT THERE, not some document specifying something. What is out there with countless cameras does not provide for the EI-64T notch. No spec or academic exercise can change this mere simple fact.

[Lunar07]

If you want to shoot E64 in your elmo or bauer, use manual exposure or shoot in auto with a ND 3 filter over the lens. The ND 3 will result in a 1/3 stop underexposure, perfect for reversal stock.

Robert Skates

Watch out! This is incorrect. Even with the ND filter you'll still get overexposure. The metering is TTL. So the metering is done with what the lens sees. The lens does not care if there is an ND filter or not as far as the metering is concerned. It only sees that there is light coming through and the TTL measurement adjusts the aperture! Right?
For your idea to work, the camera metering system should be NOT TTL (like the Eumig 830 XL for example). In which case the external camera meter makes a light measurement, and the ND filter on the lens itself cuts the amount of light.

[Alex]

We have kicked the grain issue into the dust by now. Anyone shooting 8mm should realize it's the smallest guage, grainiest photographic format on the planet. Pros, experts, rank newbies agree; Super 8 is grainy. If you don't want grain, don't shoot S8.

This is a questionable assessment.

The whole point of Super-8 was you could CHOOSE whether to go grainy or go for a "faux" 16mm look clean look, depending on the stock used.

With the loss of Kodachrome and no lower ASA negative to replace it, Kodak is weakening the foundation of super-8 even as Super-8's populariy and curiousity factor continues to increase.

I refuse to buy negative stock from a facility that profits by misleading newbies. If Kodak released 50 negative ASA super-8 it actually will help the sales of Ektachrome 64 because then Ektachrome 64 won't have to be falsely marketed as Kodachrome's replacement. Instead, Ektachrome can be marketed as a terrfic same day color reversal with remarkable color accuracy and trademark grain, the perfect daytime compliment to 50 the cleaner less grainy negative ASA 50 stock.

[sarmoti]

Lunar, yes, that technique only works if the metering is not through the lens (TTL).

[r.sk8s]

I do not believe that E64 will frustrate the beginer and or the advanced "amateur" to such a degree that they abandon super 8. Shooting super 8 requires a level of commitment, determination and passion. As super 8 shooters, we can not simply walk into the mall buy a camera and film, shoot it and then return it to be processed. We have to track down cameras at secondhand shops ebay etc. Once we find one that works we have to procure film. Once the film arrives in the mail we shoot it and then have to ship it off to the lab and wait. Let us not even talk of telecine and or projection.

If ease of use were the criteria most of us would be chatting about minidv. I do not buy the argument of economics. There are plenty of cameras out there for under $100.00US that correctly read E64. And by the way. You can use the E64 cart in a 40/160 camera. The average beginner will not likely notice the 2/3 stop overexposure. The average advanced "amateur" should know how to compensate for it.

Robert Skates

[etimh]

Educated guesses? Is an ASA 50 negative stock a possibility in the near future? Seems like a logical compliment to the "professional" portfolio of Kodak S8 neg stocks.

I know this has been discussed endlessly--just too lazy to look it up right now. :oops:

Tim

[r.sk8s]

If you want to shoot E64 in your elmo or bauer, use manual exposure or shoot in auto with a ND 3 filter over the lens. The ND 3 will result in a 1/3 stop underexposure, perfect for reversal stock.

Robert Skates

Watch out! This is incorrect. Even with the ND filter you'll still get overexposure. The metering is TTL. So the metering is done with what the lens sees. The lens does not care if there is an ND filter or not as far as the metering is concerned. It only sees that there is light coming through and the TTL measurement adjusts the aperture! Right?
For your idea to work, the camera metering system should be NOT TTL (like the Eumig 830 XL for example). In which case the external camera meter makes a light measurement, and the ND filter on the lens itself cuts the amount of light.

Yes, I was wrong about the TTL cameras. Please refer to my post in which, with red face and dry wit, I took ownership of my public blunder.

Robert Skates

[etimh]

Educated guesses? Is an ASA 50 negative stock a possibility in the near future? Seems like a logical compliment to the "professional" portfolio of Kodak S8 neg stocks.

Just found this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=11673&highlight=asa++negative

With this quote from John:

"No promises, but I personally favor offering 7201 in Super-8. But I'm only a small part of the decision making process, that must have a strong business case to move ahead."

So maybe...an ASA 50, 200, and 500 neg stocks--pretty cool.

Tim

[sarmoti]

Educated guesses? Is an ASA 50 negative stock a possibility in the near future? Seems like a logical compliment to the "professional" portfolio of Kodak S8 neg stocks.

I know this has been discussed endlessly--just too lazy to look it up right now. :oops:

Tim

If you absolutely need ASA50 neg stock, Pro8mm can provide it. I guess it's a possibility for Kodak, we'll have to see. Hey, you can even expose it at 25 or 12 ASA and pull process it, talk about no grain!