Cuba paid Oswald to kill Kennedy, new film says

[MovieStuff]

Did the car slow down delibretably to simplify the aiming? If you were a member of an assasination conspiracy, would you deliberately take the wheel of a car destined to be showered with bullets?

That is certainly a valid question. I suppose it all depends on who you knew was going to be doing the shooting! 8O

Roger

[JGrube]

It isn't the working of the bolt that is in question. It's the marksmanship of the shots in between each working of the bolt that is suspect.

Agreed. The bolt thing is just a lazy man's approach to the conspiracy theory. People have been able to re-create the assassination in pieces, and have been able to justify components of it taken out of context. For example:

Yes, it IS possible to work the bolt on the rifle in the limited amount of time Oswald had.

It is possible to hit a moving target at 70 yards.

The carcano is a crummy weapon, but it still could have done the job.

My issue has always been: He follows the target up the street and around the corner, AND keeps the crosshairs on Kennedy, AND fires rapidly and deals with the recoil of a full sized rifle cartridge (not a smaller, "intermediate" cartride as found in AK-47 and M-16), AND works the bolt with his "free" hand, AND scores a perfect hit with his THIRD shot at the furthest distance. He does all this in 8 seconds or less with a $12.75 surplus rifle.

Taken together, that is a LOT to overcome. No one has been able to re-create that. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I've always found it to be a big stretch.

Best,

Jason

[S8 Booster]

csi would easily stopped the bullet mid-air and reversed it back into the barrel to find out where.

anyway; these seemingly newly restored images are the best i have seen yet:
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/zapruder.mpg
workprinter?

frame by frame hq:
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

s/hoot :?:

[S8 Booster]

"all" films shot there and then:
http://www.jfk-online.com/films.html

JFK Assassination Films:

Tom Alyea
Mark Bell
Charles Bronson
Malcolm Couch
Jack Daniel
Dallas Cinema Associates
Elsie Dorman
Robert Hughes
John Martin, Jr.
Ernest Mentesana
Marie Muchmore
Orville Nix
Patsy Paschall
Dave Powers
A. B. Smith
Tina Towner
Dave Wiegman, Jr.

s/hoot :?:

[super8man]

That was the footage from the reshot 4x5 postives of the 8mm original footage to finally see what was outside the framelines...people never seen before, etc.

No workprinter stuff there. But oh it would have been wonderful had the workprinter been around for this use way back in the 60's/70's.

In reality, this is classic govenment in action work:

One or two people knew about the general masking of frame lines and "safe TV viewing" when it comes to small format films and regular 8mm projection.

However, once the initial capture to video was done, I am sure they forgot about all that extra stuff in the margins (between the sprocket holes) and the folks who KNEW about that information were never consulted in detail about film projection.

Hence this is why regular 8 kicks butt over super 8...I have constantly discovered "aunty and uncle" in the no projectable area in my transfers and known full well the owners of the film were never aware that that information was in there.

Super 8 by the way has NO extra information in the out-of-bnounds area.

Conspiracy by omission.

[BolexPlusX]

Well, my point about the car deliberately slowing down is that even though the assassin was trying to shoot Kennedy (..although wouldn't it be ironic if ultimately it was really an attempt on Governor Connolly?) the bullets were really being fired at (towards?) everybody sitting in the car. For the guy at the wheel to be part of the conspiracy, he'd have to have enough motivation to deliberately expose himself to rifle fire.

It would not have taken a huge miss to put a bullet through the driver's head. As a matter of fact that would have made the attempt easier. The car would have been pinned down until somebody else took the wheel.

How much would you have to trust someone to let them shoot somebody 5 feet away from you and a moving target at that?

To my knowledge he lived an ordinary (for a secret service agent, that is!)life and died in average wealth.

-It wasn't money

He didn't marry the widow

-It wasn't Sex

Could have been politics, but those kinds of political convictions are unusual.


It's one of the reasons I doubt Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald to shut him up. He spent the rest of his life in the slammer. What made it worth it to him? If he was part of a conspiracy and Oswald outed him, the worst thing that could have happened to him is....spending the rest of his life in the slammer!

[MovieStuff]

Super 8 by the way has NO extra information in the out-of-bnounds area.

Actually, we see a bit of extra information on the left between the sprocket holes of super 8 quite often. Not as much as regular 8, since the holes are smaller, but it still shows up from time to time.

Roger

[aj]

My issue has always been: He follows the target up the street and around the corner, AND keeps the crosshairs on Kennedy, AND fires rapidly and deals with the recoil of a full sized rifle cartridge (not a smaller, "intermediate" cartride as found in AK-47 and M-16), AND works the bolt with his "free" hand, AND scores a perfect hit with his THIRD shot at the furthest distance. He does all this in 8 seconds or less with a $12.75 surplus rifle.

AND this not how one operates a rifle.

You only have to have the crosshair on the target when you pull the trigger. NOT continiously. The first bullet was in the chamber when he started. Using the bolt in 4 seconds is not a demanding action. The weapon reloaded from a clip/magazine. Dealing with recoil comes with the training as Marine and is NOT particularly difficult.

[super8man]

OK - I was trying not to be so specific since on a scale of 1-100 for extra information, super 8 is 10 or less while regular 8 if often over 50 and sometimes a full 100 like the Zapruder film.

[aj]

Especially not when trained as a Marine. Of which most are proud because it is hard to achieve.

Most proud Marines would flinch at the thought of killing their commander in chief.

Roger

Well, the Marines in Kubrick's "Full metal jacket" are educated by Sergeant Hartman with some examples of excellent marksmanship. One was some university shooter and another was Oswalds deeds.

Fiction and crazy? Or based on some anecdote from the service.

[MovieStuff]

...... is NOT particularly difficult.

Seriously, AJ, it's all difficult. And when you realistically consider the number of people that could NOT do it compared to the relatively few that might be able to pull it off with practice, it puts the results of that effort in a totally different light. That doesn't mean he didn't do it but there is nothing about what Oswald supposedly did that would be considered "easy", by any standard.

Roger

[audadvnc]

This event is moving out of the era of history and into that of legend. Of the handful of people who actually knew what happened, how many are still alive today? Soon, it will be impossible to discern what was the truth of the day.

Amazingly, it can be discussed as a current event on Internet forums 40+ years later. When I was a kid, 40 odd years prior was WWI, and I thought that was ancient history, though Grandpa Wells didn't. He said he never wanted to go camping again in his life.

[Scotness]

Looking around on the site with the Zapruder mpg I found this:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v3 ... larosa.pdf

It's an article come book review all about the film - it really is quite interesting both from an assaination investigation point of view - but also from a photogtraphic history point of view - there's a bit in there about Kodachrome and Kodak and developing/printing/copying etc. It also makes quite convincing arguements that the film has been altered in some frames.

About Stone's JFK - someone told me the other day that it's full of factual errors - which is very disappointing because it's really only shooting itself in the foot then and making it easy for it's critics to pull down it's valid parts. It's also dissapointing because I think it's an extremely well made movie and a landmark in it's use of the medium and editing.

BTW why did they pick 2017 for the release of the documents - although elederly some people involved will still be around then.



Scot

[JGrube]

AND this not how one operates a rifle.

Fortunatly, as an American from Michigan, I have had the opportunity to use a rifle once or twice. :lol: I even own an 8mm Carabiner and a Mosin-Nagant rifle. While they are not exactly a Carcano, firing them does give one an idea of what to expect from a surplus rifle.

You only have to have the crosshair on the target when you pull the trigger. NOT continiously.

While technically correct, that's just silly. The crosshairs are on the target because you put them there, which requires you not only to track the target if it's moving, but requires you to LEAD the target so that it doesn't move out of your crosshairs while you squeeze. You cannot drop the crosshairs onto a target as you are squeezing the trigger and expect to hit anything.

Using the bolt in 4 seconds is not a demanding action. The weapon reloaded from a clip/magazine

Once again, if that's all you're trying to do, operating the bolt is quick and easy. If you're tracking a moving target, firing live ammo, and don't have time to lower the rifle from your shoulder in between shots, it kinda tough.

Recoil is recoil, laws of physics. Training will help you get used to it, but the rifle WILL move off target when you fire and you will need a second to re-acquire the target.

Again, in the time Oswald had, it's not impossible, but REALLY difficult, for a hunter, a marine, an FBI sniper, anybody.

Talking about photogrammetry and the Thornburn position and the "jet effect" always get into speculation because few people have deep and specific knowlege on these subjects. I specifically picked aspects relating to the rifle because firing a rifle is something that myself and millions of others have had direct experience with. I figured that would provide the most straightforward examples.

See, this is way better than the Wal-Mart debate...

Best,

Jason

[audadvnc]

Of course, you can buy rifles at walmart. And I just took some K40 in to see if they can get it to Dwayne's. We'll see.