Cuba paid Oswald to kill Kennedy, new film says

[super8man]

That write up above sounds a lot like 100% of the the "professional" camera folks who tell us we cannot have use a regular super 8 camera to make a good movie. The filmstock jitters, the cameras are not registered and the lenses are all inferior. Yet somehow, through it all, at the end of the day, a beautiful little roll of kodachrome sits on a desk showing the world what really happened. Funny isn't it?

[MovieStuff]

The rifle was an excellent high velocity military weapon.

I dunno. Every gun collector I know thinks it's a piece of crap with notoriously lousy accuracy.

Oswald was an excellent marksman. His US Marines scorebook is still available to check and shows his marksmanship.

I've seen that and it is interesting, actually. The problem is that the paper trail on Oswald has always been considered suspect by both conspiracy theorists as well as lone assassin proponents. I'm not saying that the scorebook is fake but it can't be accepted at face value either, considering the crowd he ran with and the circumstances.

the distance was only 60-70 yards. Firing the shots is the time frame as recorded by the police tape is easy...

"Easy"? Let's see. 60-70 yards and only a few seconds to target and knock off the most powerful man in the free world in front of thousands of potential witnesses.... Oh, sure. Oswald was under no pressure at all....

a man in his 80's showed that he can do that.

Really? A man in his 80s showed that he could kill the President of the United States without it affecting his accuracy or performance? Or did a man in his 80's show he could pop a cantelope at 60 yards without having to run for his life afterwards?

Roger

[aj]

Doubting all serious info brought in makes it somewhat difficult.

The rifle is OK. The booklet exists. At 60 yards is not difficult to shoot somebody with a military weapon. Especially not when trained as a Marine. Of which most are proud because it is hard to achieve.

Assessing the mind of a absent killer is also quite difficult and for normal people impossible.

Apparently people can believe that CIA/FBI then could forge and arrange everything while these same organisations couldn't stop the Oklahoma bombing, 9/11 or determine if Iraq had WMD's. Or when the WMD's were a made up excuse that they forgot to plant the evidence.

How did they ever keep the invasion of Normandy secret to the date of 6th june 1944?

I'll leave it there.

[MovieStuff]

Doubting all serious info brought in makes it somewhat difficult.

Indeed, for both conspiracy theorists as well as lone assassin proponents.

The rifle is OK.

Most gun collectors feel that Mannlicher Carcano rifles were sloppily made. While some might be solid and trustworthy, bad QC in the Italian factories after the war made them undesirable.

The booklet exists.

But doesn't mean it is valid.

At 60 yards is not difficult to shoot somebody with a military weapon.

The U.S. Marines didn't use Mannlicher Carcano rifles for anything and, certainly, not for sniper duty.

Espcially not when trained as a Marine. Of which most are proud because it is hard to achieve.

Most proud Marines would flinch at the thought of killing their commander in chief.

Assessing the mind of a absent killer is also quite difficult and for normal people impossible.

It's even more impossible when related files are sealed and locked away for decades and still not available. Surely that wasn't done to protect the honor or image of Lee Harvey Oswald's legacy?

I'm not saying the Oswald did or didn't do it. I am saying that anyone making definative claims one way or other does so on circumstantial evidence only, all of which is open to interpretation. All things considered, anything is possible.

How did they ever keep the invasion of Normandy secret to the date of 6th june 1944.

Because there was no internet. ;)

Roger

[audadvnc]

At 60 yards is not difficult to shoot somebody with a military weapon.

The U.S. Marines didn't use Mannlicher Carcano rifles for anything and, certainly, not for sniper duty.

The Marines train at 200+ yards, and snipers routinely target at 1000 yards- over a half mile. But hitting anything moving 35 mph is a feat, even at 60 yards.

Espcially not when trained as a Marine. Of which most are proud because it is hard to achieve.

Most proud Marines would flinch at the thought of killing their commander in chief.

Most proud Marines would flinch at usurping the Constitution, but that never stopped Ollie North.

[BolexPlusX]

Unfortunately, this is a never-ending process. Somebody recently published a new conspiracy theory on the Lincoln Assassination, even though the official story is that there WAS a conspiracy in that case! (Prosecutions are not expected here!)

Who knows?, the truth may be right in front of us in either the official story or a conspiracy theory or parts of both, but because of all the noise mixed in with the facts, we'll never be sure.

If and when the official records are unsealed it won't make any difference. If any real truths are revealed someone else will always have a juicier theory that "refutes" them.

Maybe the Beatles did it!

[JGrube]

the truth may be right in front of us in either the official story or a conspiracy theory or parts of both, but because of all the noise mixed in with the facts

I think that's the most sensible statement on the Kennedy assassination I've ever heard. The problem seems to be in the "all or nothing" battle between Warren Commission supporters and "The FBI and the CIA did it" conspiracy theorists. At some point both sides put out such far fetched arguments to support their claims, that they give the other side an opening to refute their theory.

Two that immediately come to mind relate to rifles-
Conspiracy theorists say that it is impossible to operate the bolt on the rifle in 5-8 seconds.
Anyone who owns a rifle can pick it up and work the bolt three times and see that it is possible.
By the same token-
Warren supporters say that the smoke/steam behind the grassy knoll could not have come from a rifle because modern rifles use smokeless powder.
Again, anyone with a modern rifle can take it out and fire a shot and watch the smoke whiff out of the barrel. It doesn't smoke like a blackpowder rifle, but it smokes just the same.

It seems more likely that the pieces of the truth are still too diluted and scattered to really come up with something that really makes sense. There is so much out there, most of the books that follow up on the case are as thick as the Warren Report itself (Case Closed, by Gerald Posner for example). This may never end, but it sure is interesting to follow.

Jason

[S8 Booster]

How did they ever keep the invasion of Normandy secret to the date of 6th june 1944.

Because there was no internet. ;)

Roger

not quite, it was because churchil and eisenhower locked degaulle into a closet in the final stages of planning and until day-broke-lose.

true

they didnt let him out until they needed a galeon figure in front of the troops marching into paris.

almost true

s/hoot

[S8 Booster]

i think it was newman - none of you ever watched seinfeld

anyway, i havent really looked too well into the info avail but i think the following appears relevant and not fully answered:

how many rounds were actually fired and
from what direction(s) ->
was there more than 1 shooter
which shot hit kennedy 1st nd rd?

it is no doubt that the best snipers would easily fix this (A headshot) but how many shots and how were they distributed? was it a lucky hit or were there fired more shots to confuse investigation so it loked like it was a lucky hit amongst many near hits and not 1 professional hit?

a rifle can be pre-calibrated exactly to a certain distance - remember the man with the umbrealla and the other guy being markers and finally; did the car slow down delibretably to simplify the aiming? look at the zapruder - youll know what i mean.

to me the gun smoke has not yet settled, and yes, i remeber the day it happened too well.


s/hoot

[S8 Booster]

....
Maybe the Beatles did it!

not quite - elvis became a undercover us marchal or fbier to undo the beatles threat.

s/hoot

[flatwood]

- elvis became a undercover us marchal or fbier to undo the beatles threat.

Hmmm. My understanding (I played piano for a couple years with Big E's backup singers (the stamps) when they went pop right after Elvis died) from a couple of the TCB guys who were actually with Elvis when he showed up at the white house gates was that Nixon made Elvis a federal narcotics officer and that Elvis was stoned out of his goard at the actual time. They were doing a concert in the area and Big E just decided to head over to the white house with no appointment AND got in to see Nixon.

[JGrube]

The JFK film is FICTION. The only accurate things are that it plays in Dallas and the President was murdered.

Following the debate after the release of the film, I've been suprised at how many of the details in the movie are taken directly from history. I'm not saying Stone's film should be considered as a history book, but here's one of the really interesting, (not neccessarily important) things I've seen.

Remember in the film when Oswald is giving a press conference, and somebody asks him about the "Hands off Cuba" movement? Before Oswald (Gary Oldman) can answer, a man in the back of the room corrects the reporter on live TV, saying that it's the "Fair Play for Cuba" committee. We see in the film that the character who says this is Jack Ruby. I always thought that suggesting Ruby was at the press conference was a fancy liberty on Oliver Stone's part. Actually, that's precisely what happened, it WAS Jack Ruby, and he was on national TV with Oswald days before he killed him. Here's a still from the TV footage:



That's Ruby standing in back. Crazy stuff.

Jason

[MovieStuff]

Conspiracy theorists say that it is impossible to operate the bolt on the rifle in 5-8 seconds. Anyone who owns a rifle can pick it up and work the bolt three times and see that it is possible.

It isn't the working of the bolt that is in question. It's the marksmanship of the shots in between each working of the bolt that is suspect.

Warren supporters say that the smoke/steam behind the grassy knoll could not have come from a rifle because modern rifles use smokeless powder. Again, anyone with a modern rifle can take it out and fire a shot and watch the smoke whiff out of the barrel. It doesn't smoke like a blackpowder rifle, but it smokes just the same.

Agreed. The term "smokeless" powder is a misconception about guns, just like "silencers". They're far from silent and smokeless powder isn't smokeless.

It seems more likely that the pieces of the truth are still too diluted and scattered to really come up with something that really makes sense.

I concur. It is kind of like the whole Roswell UFO thing. We may never know exactly what happened but the fact that the air force has put up no less than three different stories about Roswell hardly makes sorting out the truth any easier. Why cover up their cover ups with more cover ups? Likewise, it would be convenient to believe that Oswald simply did it alone out of hatred for the President but the fact that crucial Kennedy files will remain sealed until 2017 creates a quasi-roswell credibility problem that lone assassin proponents have a hard time explaining. In other words, if it is really that simple an answer, then why seal the files at all?

It will be interesting to see what's revealed 11 years from now. I think the truth may be stanger than any of us can imagine and so much time will have distanced us from the event that we'll all go, "What? Is that it?"

It will probably be a big let down, even for those that are convinced Oswald did it alone.

Roger

[BolexPlusX]

Did the car slow down delibretably to simplify the aiming?


If you were a member of an assasination conspiracy, would you deliberately take the wheel of a car destined to be showered with bullets?

[S8 Booster]

i know but just look at it - it definately slows down and wouldnt it be natural in those days - open cars and greeting the "audience?"

s/hoot