Max 8:New life for super 8 or gimmick?

[MovieStuff]

Roger snipped and did not answer my questions.

Respectfully, I saw no point, Mitch. I mean, it is quite clear that you have no personal negative experience with Pro8mm or that would have been the first thing you responded with. Here we are several posts later and you still haven't other than you don't like the way they answer the phone or something. Thus, your rhetoric on the Pro8mm subject only proves my point that people having no experience with a company often feel justified in posting negatively when people that have repeated positive experiences usually post nothing at all. That's why I don't read much into the negative posts about Pro8mm. I didn't answer your questions because it is clear that you've already made up your mind to believe what you want. That's certainly your choice but I used my personal experience with Phil to make my case. I'm still waiting for you to make yours.

You didn't hijack the thread. It started with a complaint about Pro8mm. The complaint did not, however contain the words, "evil monopoly"

Well, that depends on how you look at it, Mitch. Previously, Evan wrote:

Their continued existence is, IMO, more a sign of their corner on the niche S8 market rather than any sign of quality or legitimacy. Some of my other hobbies involve similar situations, where a retailer is the only choice and remains somewhat successful despite poor service and quality.

The term "monopoly" has been certainly implied several times on this forum and that is what I was responding to. I'll leave it to you if you feel the term "evil" applies or if you want to substitute it with a slam of a different choice.

As an aside, I have never shown you any level of disrespect in any discussion, Mitch. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

Roger

[chachi]

Is there a pro8mm Walmart connection?

[Justin Lovell]

geez, here we go again.

I'm out.

[Mitch Perkins]

Roger snipped and did not answer my questions.

Respectfully, I saw no point, Mitch.

Equally respectfully, I'd still very much like to know what is meant by the phrase "grow up" wrt Super8. On what level and for whom? [wrt = with regard to]

I mean, it is quite clear that you have no personal negative experience with Pro8mm or that would have been the first thing you responded with.

No, because the issue for me is that you're trying to discredit anyone who posts, "Ive heard that...", which is a *perfectly legitimate* word of mouth conduit for info about the quality of service offered by any business.

Here we are several posts later and you still haven't other than you don't like the way they answer the phone or something.

How you answer the phone and deal with folks thereon is the first indicator of expected future quality of service.
Another personal experience: I called to ask whether removing a defunct sync sound controller with "Super8Sound" all over it would disable any crucial functions of the cam in question. No, I could not talk to the tech. No, she couldn't help me , and good-bye now. Snotty.

Thus, your rhetoric on the Pro8mm subject only proves my point that people having no experience with a company often feel justified in posting negatively when people that have repeated positive experiences usually post nothing at all.

Interesting unsupported theory. Another might be that any business generally is responsible for their own good/bad rep. I don't see any digs against your company here. Could it be that you treat customers with respect, and actually value their calls?

That's why I don't read much into the negative posts about Pro8mm

You read enough into them that you posted quite a long defense of Pro8mm.

I didn't answer your questions because it is clear that you've already made up your mind to believe what you want.

In what way does this affect the usefulness of clarifying the phrase, "grow up", wrt Super 8 for everyone else here?

That's certainly your choice but I used my personal experience with Phil to make my case.

Phil being your freind, your personal experience with him is explicilty irrelevant from the point of view of a customer calling his company for the first time.

I'm still waiting for you to make yours.

See multiple personal experiences above.

You didn't hijack the thread. It started with a complaint about Pro8mm. The complaint did not, however contain the words, "evil monopoly"

Well, that depends on how you look at it, Mitch. Previously, Evan wrote:

Their continued existence is, IMO, more a sign of their corner on the niche S8 market rather than any sign of quality or legitimacy. Some of my other hobbies involve similar situations, where a retailer is the only choice and remains somewhat successful despite poor service and quality.

The term "monopoly" has been certainly implied several times on this forum and that is what I was responding to. I'll leave it to you if you feel the term "evil" applies or if you want to substitute it with a slam of a different choice.

I don't care about Pro8mm. I do care when someone attempts to discredit word of mouth info on a "hobby" forum.

As an aside, I have never shown you any level of disrespect in any discussion, Mitch. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

Roger

This is not personal. Please in future do not attempt to belittle valid complaints posted by people who clearly have a right to their own opinion, even if said opinion is based on second hand information. It is a sign of disrespect to the forum, the people on it, and free speech itself.

As an aside, I think Max8 is a perfect name, as it speaks precisely to the gain of the mod, *and* reminds me of "Get Smart". I wish anyone all the success they can generate, but I don't particularly enjoy snottiness from a business.
WFW is a much larger business, but somehow they always manage to be courteous and helpful.

Mitch

[Mitch Perkins]

(snip)

It's not easy to have a business, these days, and make money from it.
Customers are very demanding: everything must be perfect and price must be low at the same time, witch is impossible.

So if you want to keep Super-8 in business, you must be prepared to pay for it. You must understand no one can do anything for free.

Fred.

Hi Fred.

I think most people just want a reasonable price, and to be treated with common courtesy. The concensus, for better or worse, seems to be that Pro8mm does not deliver the goods in these respects.

Mitch

[MovieStuff]

Please in future do not attempt to belittle valid complaints posted by people who clearly have a right to their own opinion, even if said opinion is based on second hand information. It is a sign of disrespect to the forum, the people on it, and free speech itself.

Actually it is a sign that, unlike you and many others, I don't readily accept opinions based on second hand information as "valid complaints." Thanks for clarifying your position on this matter and thanks, also, for proving my point by doing so.

Roger

[Mitch Perkins]

http://www.pro8mm.com/pro8_pdfs/Press/P ... p_Show.pdf

Had a look here. For the record, the mod they are performing is, as stated in the article, considerably more involved than what I do, which is just filing out the gate. If I had any overhead to speak of, and if I catered to pros the way Pro8mm does, I would certainly charge $500.00 for this mod.

Professionals do not take you seriously if you do not value your own time. If your rates are too low, they assume (correctly, in many cases), that you are a hack. Though I obviously take great care when handling the cams of others, it's still just filing away some material...and I mostly do it just to help out. Gawd, what a great guy I am! ~:?b

[jaxshooter]

You can easily convert it to super-duper 8 by filing out the gate. It will have all the same issues as other cameras (prone to vingetting, scratch in film during processing,) but if you're careful you can miimize these and maximize your image.

"Max" 8 as Pro8 has defined it, would entail recentering the optics, which is a different matter.

Rick

Yuck!Is it worth it?I'm doubting it,unless the Pro 8mm folks can do a conversion AND solve the lens recentering problems.In other words,offer the same quality conversion you would expect is if you had a Bolex 16 or Eclair NPR or ACL to be converted to super 16 from a place like Duall Camera or other equipment house.I can't see where as much would be gained in the conversion if it means risking compositional errors,scratches and extra dirt.
Wouldn't it be easier just to mark a new etching in the VF and compose for 11 by 16?You shoot super 8 for the unique look anyway,does that little extra grain matter?

[edgebsl]

I should revise my opinion just a bit.Although the "format' is not new...altering the lens mount and viewfinder is a first in super 8. I gladly support them taking credit for that but of course this was not mentioned in their earlier press releases. I think them touting that is their acheivement(and that is quite the operation)instead of reinventing the wheel ...then I think there would have been less objections....At least I wouldnt have complained so much.

I still think the "classic" 8 is quite inflated in price.

They modified their rank to accomodate "max 8" of course but I have to think that if I had the choice of getting an extra 20 percent surface and doing a transfer on their rank OR getting a cropped to 16/9 standard 8mm frame transferred on FSFTs Thompson Shadow ....I'd take the Thompson Shadow any day.

Mitch does his own transfers so his "need" for that extra surface area I believe is a lot greater than those using pro telecine. Im sure the difference helped his film a lot..A lot of factors can affect the grain.

For the price of using pro8mm cameras ,film and telecine ,I would think 16mm looks more and more appealing though.

[Rick Palidwor]

I can't see where as much would be gained in the conversion if it means risking compositional errors,scratches and extra dirt.

The risks are not that great as you learn to work around them. I find it well worthwhile.

Wouldn't it be easier just to mark a new etching in the VF and compose for 11 by 16?You shoot super 8 for the unique look anyway,does that little extra grain matter?

It would be easier, but it's not the same thing. It depends what you want out of it. I like "normal" super 8 as much as the next person, for a variety of reasons, but that little extra grain also matters (see the comments about Sleep Always on our website), so I shoot super duper for most of what I do. It's well worth it IMHO, but to each his own.

rick

[edgebsl]

Doing your own transfers ,the surface area and the better grain and sharpness is definitely going to be noticeable with a wider gate size. I was just trying to point out the difference in telecines(or colorists) can make a bit of difference too.

For example on my s16 project I did this summer I allowed some 500t to get way too hot and my footage came out grainy .I had some of the same footage done on a Rank and also on a Shadow.The shadow definitely hid the grain more. I also wound up with a roll of double perf 200t so we shot that regular 16 cropped to 16/9.The grain matched up pretty close to that of the 500t s16. someone pointed out to me that to shoot r16 cropped, to get similar grain structure as s16 go down a film speed.For example 200t in s16 should match closely to 100t in r16 and my results seemed to confirm that.

I pointed out before to Rick that "Sleep Always" has as clean a grain structure as some of my 16mm stuff! Sleep Always was shot on reversal and home transferred from the projectable original(correct me if Im wrong) so in this case you're talking some amazing results from very low budget techniques.

But if I was going to try and shoot 8mm negative and have it telecined on a machine.....I would hesitate to spend thousands on a "max 8" widescreen camera and have my transfer done on an older machine to get less grain and noise. Some of the most impressive stuff I've seen from super 8 negative has been 4:3 from the shadow .Using that method ..shooting say vision 2 200t and transferring that way...and having it framed 16:9 I seriously doubt you would end up saying "wow this is so grainy I should have used max 8 "

This is just speculation of course...

[Rick Palidwor]

I pointed out before to Rick that "Sleep Always" has as clean a grain structure as some of my 16mm stuff! Sleep Always was shot on reversal and home transferred from the projectable original(correct me if Im wrong) so in this case you're talking some amazing results from very low budget techniques.

All true. Thanks. Give the credit to Mitch.
Rick

[edgebsl]

Mitch rocks!

The gesundheit videos rock too....you guys should really find a place to post those up.

I gotta send you pics of my new GSMO!
I just scored a CP ultra T 25mm prime to go along with it too! (T1.25 baby!)

Now if only I can shoot something good with it! lol
Keep your fingers crossed.

[DrkAngl]

I've known Phil for years and used his poorly made products - first hand. He sold me recan super 8 neg that was essentially worthless. His overpriced "Pro8mm" cameras are nothing more than stripped down Beaulieu cameras with a spray paint job and Pro8mm labeling.

During my time up close and personal with Phil it was all about steering me away from better and more affordable alternatives and into his overpriced garbage. It was all about the wallet - not an interest in super 8 (or the people who shoot it).

The MAX-8 is nothing more than a new gimmick to corner you into his overpriced custom cameras and/or custom telecine. The small portion of film resolution that is gained amounts to no perceptible difference (just like other similar mods in the past). There are other companies that offer superior film, lab and telecine services that will deliver a far better picture in the standard super 8 format (SD or HD) than Pro8mm gimmicks ever could.

I understand Phil is running a business. But, why is it that I deal with other companies like Kodak or Spectra that do not slam me with outrageous prices, lousy customer service and poor quality? Why do they not relentlessly steer me into everything intended (by design) to make them tons of money. Instead, they offer honest advice and help to filmmakers. If they are able to remain in business, why do we make excuses for a company like Pro8?

It is a known fact that Pro8mm products and services of the past fail to meet the majority of peoples expectations. So, what makes the MAX-8 any different?

[Mitch Perkins]

Please in future do not attempt to belittle valid complaints posted by people who clearly have a right to their own opinion, even if said opinion is based on second hand information. It is a sign of disrespect to the forum, the people on it, and free speech itself.

Actually it is a sign that, unlike you and many others, I don't readily accept opinions based on second hand information as "valid complaints."
Thanks for clarifying your position on this matter and thanks, also, for proving my point by doing so.

Roger

Only problem is that I did cite personal experiences which validate the complaints, but oh well...here's another: the crappy VF mount they sold me for my video assist broke within weeks. The quoted replacement price was pulled from the ass of a clown.

Nobody is asking you to readily accept opinions based on second hand information as valid complaints. It might be nice if you didn't label those who do as "whiners", though.

I'm sure people ask for impressions/experiences of dealing with various companies here all the time. "I've heard that..." is a warning flag. But you are welcome to re-invent the wheel as many times as you like.

What does "grow up" mean, wrt Super 8 as a format?

Mitch